Wail or future

[sheddy]

Top Gear as a reliable news source. Most unlikely.

 

[IanSmithCSE]

Good morning,

There is quite a lot of evidence from Tesla users on battery life and the the results are much better that might be expected.

https://steinbuch.wordpress.com/2015/01/24/tesla-model-s-battery-degradation-data/

Similar results are published in many articles but there are very few sources of real data so most are effectively the same article. :-)

There seems to be a 10% drop in capacity during the first 50K km -100K km and then the capacity remains the same up to about 200K km where the data ends.

There are some outliers where the capacity drops to 80%-85% quite quickly but no explanation, are these taxis being fast charged frequently or cars rarely used?

The better results for Tesla than the Nissan Leaf may simply be because the Leaf (24kWh/40kWh) batteries have so much less capacity than the Tesla (60kWh plus, any model) that they were more often over/fully charged and then almost fully discharged.

There is an article here

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0360544288900291

which discusses the environmental impact of Aluminium Air batteries from 1988, (yes, 1988) so the idea is not new. It appears that the problem is finding an electrolyte that is cheap enough and doesn't dissolve the aluminium.

There is an article here

https://phys.org/news/2018-10-catalyst-high-energy-aluminum-air-batteries.html

which talks about an aluminium air flow battery. Flow batteries are a battery where you have a reaction chamber, like the whole of typical battery, but one where the electrolyte is pumped into the battery charged and then out once discharged. The size of the reaction chamber limits the current/voltage that can be delivered, but the capacity is limited by the size of the electrolyte tanks.

So it may be that a new electrolyte has been discovered, or it may be another Starlite.

As mentioned earlier the battery is not rechargable, it has to be replaced, the numbers in the article suggest that the battery would weigh around 60kg - 70kg if it were to replace the Tesla S battery pack.

With Tesla quoting 4p(at home) - 7p (public point) per mile for charging a model S the 1,500 mile battery needs to cost around £60 fully charged, delivered to shop, fitted and returned for recycling.

That is roughly the cost of the battery to start a petrol engined car.

Bye

Ian

 

[Drago]

On Tesla, yes.

On the Leaf, to date the world's best selling model of electric car, no.

 

[Andy in Germany]

The best automotive battery tech still has an energy density only 1/60th that of petrol when measure by weight. Even worse, when the batteries are flat and useless they still weigh exactly the same. There's a long, long way to go before the technology matures to an almost forgettable everyday level.

Even worse is the lifespan. Early Leaf's, which aren't fitted with battery conditioning technology, are being sold in dreadful working condition. 2013 models with only 50 ot 60k miles under their belt are being sold second hand with a battery capacity permitting only 50 or 60 miles range left. Top Gear recently used such a car in one of their challenges. That makes an utter mockery of the supposed environmental benefits of the electric car.

This is the point that people seem very keen to ignore/forget when discussing Electric Cars. The energy density of batteries is very low compared to fossil fuels, and the energy needs to come from somewhere which means increasing the generating capacity.

Lithium is likewise a rare metal, so we're replacing a diminishing energy source with a rare storage material.

The 2013 Leaf only had an original realistic range of 75 miles. So as a second hand car, it makes ideal sense for cheap, local driving, as it's only going to cost 4p a mile in electricity costs to drive. Bearing in mind 60% of all car journeys are 5 miles or less, the reduced range really won't be a problem.

Wouldn't it be better to make it easier to complete these journeys in other ways? Hauling a couple of tonnes of metal a few kilometres seems a rather awkward way to get about for car users and local residents alike.

 

[Andy in Germany]

As mentioned earlier the battery is not rechargable, it has to be replaced, the numbers in the article suggest that the battery would weigh around 60kg - 70kg if it were to replace the Tesla S battery pack.

With Tesla quoting 4p(at home) - 7p (public point) per mile for charging a model S the 1,500 mile battery needs to cost around £60 fully charged, delivered to shop, fitted and returned for recycling.

That is roughly the cost of the battery to start a petrol engined car.

So the plan is to use energy to make and charge a battery, using materials from all over the world, then use it once until it is flat, and use more energy to break it down, recycle it and charge it again?

 

[IanSmithCSE]

Good morning,

So the plan is to use energy to make and charge a battery, using materials from all over the world, then use it once until it is flat, and use more energy to break it down, recycle it and charge it again?

My wording was a bit bad, like all non rechargeable batteries, you don't actually charge them, but yes, the idea is to replace the rechargeable Lithium-Ion batteries with a single use unit that has to as you say "use more energy to break it down, recycle it"

If you are driving in the hills of Scotland for example you can fill up with petrol or fully charge a Tesla so that you can go where there are no refuelling facilities. So how much of this non rechargeable battery capacity will have been used when it is replaced?

If the battery is to be replaced at "petrol stations" then surely it needs to be a standard design, it needs to fit a Smart Car and a BMW 7 series. Once you have a standard design development of both the battery and cars becomes heavily constrained.

Bye

Ian

 

[Drago]

Top Gear as a reliable news source. Most unlikely.

I'm not citing Top Gear as a news source. I'm citing the car they bought as an example of an ageing Leaf with vastly reduced battery capacity. Trawl the ads and see for yourself.

Or read this lot...

https://flipthefleet.org/2018/30-kwh-leafs-soh-loss/

https://insideevs.com/news/337439/nissan-issues-statement-on-leaf-30-kwh-battery-degradation/

https://www.drivelife.co.nz/2017/12/2011-nissan-leaf-g-used-ev-review-daily-driver-replacement/

And you'll note I'm still not citing Top Gear as a news source. That was a ridiculous thing to say, no doubt trotted out to cover your embarrassment at not have a properly reasoned and informed response.

So the bottom line remains, a 9 year old ICE power car will have the same range per tank as when new (in actual fact it'll likely be slightly better, as reciprocating engines typically reach peak efficiency between 30 and 80 thousand miles). Some used Leaf's (Leaves?) are struggling to achieve half that. So, other than forcing owners to catch the bus more often, how is that environmentally friendly?

 

[Andy in Germany]

Good morning,



My wording was a bit bad, like all non rechargeable batteries, you don't actually charge them, but yes, the idea is to replace the rechargeable Lithium-Ion batteries with a single use unit that has to as you say "use more energy to break it down, recycle it"

If you are driving in the hills of Scotland for example you can fill up with petrol or fully charge a Tesla so that you can go where there are no refuelling facilities. So how much of this non rechargeable battery capacity will have been used when it is replaced?

If the battery is to be replaced at "petrol stations" then surely it needs to be a standard design, it needs to fit a Smart Car and a BMW 7 series. Once you have a standard design development of both the battery and cars becomes heavily constrained.

Bye

Ian

The other problem is that with the standard battery system they would also need to schepp the things up to our hypothetical Highland petrol station and of course, get the duds back down. How many of these things can a truck carry? Also, that means a diesel powered truck as the backbone of this allegedly ecologically sound transport system. You could use a battery powered truck of course, but that would reduce the cargo capacity.
Then we have to scale this up all over Scotland: every garage needs say 10 batteries? 50? 100? and a truck can't transport that many meaning you need loads of trucks.

 

[byegad]

Toyota quoted 8 years for the Prius batteries when they built the first ones, some of them have done 16yrs and still over 80% capacity. These days our Yaris has a 10 Yr battery warranty, so long as you get the car serviced each year by Toyota.

 

[Smokin Joe]

From the same stable as cars that run on air or water.

 

[Cavalol]

It's much needed and I hope it works. The current (no pun intended) range on most vehicles is pretty rubbish, really.

 

[Flying Dodo]

It will be a problem when the batteries drop off a cliff and it goes from 50 miles to zero.

Except they don't.

 

[DRM]

The other problem is that with the standard battery system they would also need to schepp the things up to our hypothetical Highland petrol station and of course, get the duds back down. How many of these things can a truck carry? Also, that means a diesel powered truck as the backbone of this allegedly ecologically sound transport system. You could use a battery powered truck of course, but that would reduce the cargo capacity.
Then we have to scale this up all over Scotland: every garage needs say 10 batteries? 50? 100? and a truck can't transport that many meaning you need loads of trucks.

Battery change over has been common place on electric fork trucks for years, if a standard battery casing was adopted by car manufacturers, then in theory petrol stations could be turned into a charging bay, ie you pull up, the battery is removed from your car & put on charge, a fully charged battery is then put in your car & off you go, however how many batteries would have to be held in stock? Where will all the raw materials come from to make them, how much more electricity would need to be available from the National Grid to charge all these batteries? It’s so far away from having electric vehicles that we can’t just do away with internal combustion engines in one go, perhaps a better solution would be an electric vehicle with a small petrol generator built in, not the hybrids that we have now, the generator starts to charge the battery as the available capacity drops to get you to a charging point, I think this could work.

 

[Andy in Germany]

Battery change over has been common place on electric fork trucks for years, if a standard battery casing was adopted by car manufacturers, then in theory petrol stations could be turned into a charging bay, ie you pull up, the battery is removed from your car & put on charge, a fully charged battery is then put in your car & off you go, however how many batteries would have to be held in stock? Where will all the raw materials come from to make them, how much more electricity would need to be available from the National Grid to charge all these batteries? It’s so far away from having electric vehicles that we can’t just do away with internal combustion engines in one go, perhaps a better solution would be an electric vehicle with a small petrol generator built in, not the hybrids that we have now, the generator starts to charge the battery as the available capacity drops to get you to a charging point, I think this could work.

I think you've identified several of the major problems that manufacturers are hoping to gloss over as long as they can. Essentially electric cars will wok in moderately densely populated areas but supplying the batteries will be an issue anywhere else, which is precisely where you need them to work.

I suspect as this becomes clear there will be massive efforts to make the system work in some places (State governments in the former East Germany for example, will probably sponsor battery supply stations) in other places like the rural UK the powers that be will expect "market forces" to resolve the problem, ie, they'll do nothing and there will be more rural depopulation because of transport problems.

Of course that could be balanced out as fossil fuels become more expensive by the need to replace machines with human energy for food production.

Ultimately we need to stop seeing electric vehicles as a way to keep business as usual. We need to accept that the situation we've taken for granted for the last 60 years or so, where we could transport people and goods over large distances for next to nothing, is an anomaly. The future will be more localised, slower, and will involve a lot less travelling and a lot more use of human powered, rail and water transport.

 

[DRM]

Perhaps if buses were cheaper and more frequent then more people would use them, as it stands now for me and the other half to go to Leeds is a £10 return off peak, however on weekends we can park for £4 to £5, all day and probably use less then a litre of petrol there and back, we may have to start using the canals again to transport goods between towns, for long distance car journeys perhaps we could see the return of trains to take you the majority of the way, freight could go on trains, but since Beeching closed the branch lines you can’t get to smaller destinations, but then again he was tied to BRS, the old nationalised road transport company so there was only one thing that was ever going to happen there, as for trying to travel by train, it’s mind blowing trying to find a reasonably priced ticket, the standard fares are ludicrous, we really do need to have a huge rethink about how we do things, and make it easier for people to leave their cars at home, don’t forget not everybody can just cycle, we really have, as a species got ourselves in a right old mess with no easy solutions