Watching an experienced cyclist on our roads

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GuyBoden

Guru
Location
Warrington
I pull safely into the side of the road and let them pass.

I hope you mean you pull into a proper passing place. The Highway Code correctly says "where it is safe" and squeezing into the gutter on single-track (actual or effective) to let people pass is not safe - all it takes is a passing accelerating motorist to wobble their steering wheel and you could be seriously injured or worse.

Yes, safely is the correct procedure, when sharing the roads with other faster, larger vehicles.

Highway Code Rule 169: “Do not hold up a long queue of traffic, especially if you are driving a large or slow-moving vehicle.“Check your mirrors frequently, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass.”
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Apparently there is some kind of theoretical cycle lane that is actually good - I've yet to see one, other than dedicated cut throughs which are in effect seperate roads via different routes entirely.
You've yet to see one other than the ones you've seen? That's priceless.

Good cycling infrastructure is more common in neighbouring countries than here, so you'd need to travel to see more of it.

Anyway, something close to your political view is ingrained in cyclecraft, alongside some other politics that I hope you don't share, and some useful cycling techniques. That's the point.
 

Profpointy

Legendary Member
You've yet to see one other than the ones you've seen? That's priceless.

Good cycling infrastructure is more common in neighbouring countries than here, so you'd need to travel to see more of it.

Anyway, something close to your political view is ingrained in cyclecraft, alongside some other politics and some useful cycling techniques. That's the point.

To be fair I'm only in my mid 50s, so I've yet to see every cycle lane in the country. I must have travelled (not cycled) a million miles by road though, so I've seen a good cross-section I reckon.

Also, I have been to Amsterdam, though not cycled there. Great there is loads of cycling, but even there, I do wonder if the cycle lanes are more about getting pesky cyclists out of cars' way than actually helping cycling. The cycle lanes seem jam packed. Not cycled there as I've said, so maybe it's an unfair impression. I'm inclined to think cycling there is better because loads of people are cycling and it's seen as a normal activity, and motorists aren't then murderously trying to scare or injure cyclists like they sometimes do here
 

glasgowcyclist

Charming but somewhat feckless
Location
Scotland
I'm inclined to think cycling there is better because loads of people are cycling and it's seen as a normal activity, and motorists aren't then murderously trying to scare or injure cyclists like they sometimes do here

I think it's a fallacy to attribute any better driving habits to the Dutch than is present in GB. The difference there is that the level of uptake in bike riding is so high because there is a safe network for users of all ages and abilities. An 11yr-old child riding to school shouldn't be expected to "take the lane" just to ensure adults drive safely around him.

I'm what is often called a vehicular cyclist but I hate it and I ride that way only because there's no safe infra here yet. (Aside from a couple of very short, notable exceptions.)
 

Profpointy

Legendary Member
I think it's a fallacy to attribute any better driving habits to the Dutch than is present in GB. The difference there is that the level of uptake in bike riding is so high because there is a safe network for users of all ages and abilities. An 11yr-old child riding to school shouldn't be expected to "take the lane" just to ensure adults drive safely around him.

I'm what is often called a vehicular cyclist but I hate it and I ride that way only because there's no safe infra here yet. (Aside from a couple of very short, notable exceptions.)

I guess I was suggesting the "safety in numbers" thing in Holland, rather than drivers per se being any more skillful. I think they have a reputation of being quite bad - though don't know if this is a fair rep or otherwise. Also, because everyone cycles, they are inherently less likely to treat cyclists as some kind of low-life scum, as it could be them on another day. Presumably the Amsterdam equivalent of the Daily Mail (if indeed there is such a thing in a liberal country) encouraging murder of cyclists either.

Edit: I should add I do agree with your point that it's wrong for an 11 year old to have semi-agressively take the lane and so on simply to be safe. As an 11 year old cycling in Cardiff the aggression I got from cars was horrific. (this was a good while ago).
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
To be fair I'm only in my mid 50s, so I've yet to see every cycle lane in the country. I must have travelled (not cycled) a million miles by road though, so I've seen a good cross-section I reckon.
I've travelled by plane, but I don't claim to have an overview of how good the roads are for driving just by looking at them.

Also, I have been to Amsterdam, though not cycled there. Great there is loads of cycling, but even there, I do wonder if the cycle lanes are more about getting pesky cyclists out of cars' way than actually helping cycling. The cycle lanes seem jam packed. Not cycled there as I've said, so maybe it's an unfair impression. I'm inclined to think cycling there is better because loads of people are cycling and it's seen as a normal activity, and motorists aren't then murderously trying to scare or injure cyclists like they sometimes do here
Amsterdam's OK but it's not the best in the Netherlands for various reasons - Utrecht has more claim to that IMO and probably others more so - but where the Netherlands scores is in building/rebuilding a fairly pervasive network in a little over 40 years. Some of it is excellent, while some of it is a bit, well, British, but there's a lot of it. It shows what happen once a country convinces its politicians to stop killing children.

It's not because the motorists are much better IMO. There's more safety in numbers there but Dutch drivers are still pretty poor if you get caught alone, as you can see on https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2015/04/14/dutch-attitudes/ but I know some people don't like that author.
 

ColinJ

Puzzle game procrastinator!
I don't agree with your last point on cycle infrastructure. Pretty much every bit of cycle infrastructure I've seen makes my life as a cyclist less convenient, and more dangerous; doubly so if I avoid said infrastrcture, which encourages car drivers to try and punish me for such transgression by dangerous driving to teach me a lesson.
The more money is spent on it, the worse things will be.

Apparently there is some kind of theoretical cycle lane that is actually good - I've yet to see one, other than dedicated cut throughs which are in effect seperate roads via different routes entirely.
You haven't searched very hard! :okay:

Here's an example that I came across in Scotland on the busy A-road between Oban and Fort William (It wasn't busy when the SV car took the picture but that was at a quiet time in October. That road is a different beast in the holiday season!)

Cycle Lane.png


The cycle path is great! There are still gaps in that long distance cycle route so riders currently get dumped back onto the road for a mile or two in various places but negotiations with landowners continue and they are gradually being won over. My cousin lives up there and he told me that a caravan site owner has just been persuaded by a local petition to allow the cycle path to pass across his land. That will allow children from Connel to cycle to school in Benderloch without having to ride on that road at all.
 

Pat "5mph"

A kilogrammicaly challenged woman
Moderator
Location
Glasgow
Had she of been a He, I bet he would of had a lot of disgruntled drivers slamming their heads against their car horns in anguish, who are keen to kick in their car into lightspeed to make the queue at the next set of traffic lights some 50-100 yards away.

I position myself as such when coming to a potential choke point along a road and even though I can crank my speed up to a modest sprint at 23-25mph for short distances. I still get a lot of drivers honking at me for lack of a better reason.
I must disagree: most times if I implement the teaching of Cyclecraft, I get honked to death.
I'm a woman, yes, but, as said above, it's all about speed.
I'm far from being a swift rider, I'm afraid.
Of course the honking means they have seen me, so hopefully they are not going to run me over, but I could get close punishment passes for daring to take the lane.

Studies done by Dr Ian Walker from Bath Uni showed that the cyclist given the widest berth was (not hi viz or bright lights etc) but...

...the test riders wearing long blonde wigs.
Aha, I must grow and colour my hair for a better cycling experience ^_^
 

Shortandcrisp

Über Member
I've not got the latest copy (mines a 2012) so it may have finally been updated but...for example, on narrow country lanes, single track roads, it advises cyclists to stay well to the side to allow faster traffic to squeeze past. It doesn't say squeeze, but that's they'd have to do. Take the lane to prevent Muppets doing just that, and periodically pull across or even off the carriageway to let them pass. Don't ride in the gutter and invite dangerous close passes like Cyclecraft advises.

What silly advice. Cars approaching a cyclist on a narrow country lane from a distance, are often travelling much too fast. The only way I’ve found to slow them down is to move into the middle of the road. Hunker to the side and you’re inviting a fast, close pass.
 

RoubaixCube

~Tribanese~
Location
London, UK
I must disagree: most times if I implement the teaching of Cyclecraft, I get honked to death.
I'm a woman, yes, but, as said above, it's all about speed.
I'm far from being a swift rider, I'm afraid.
Of course the honking means they have seen me, so hopefully they are not going to run me over, but I could get close punishment passes for daring to take the lane.


Aha, I must grow and colour my hair for a better cycling experience ^_^

I think for most men, they don't mind you being slow and stuck behind you for a while so long as you have a nice arse.
 

PaulSB

Legendary Member
Great post above SB. Agree with all of it.

Kind of related to one of your points, on domestic streets with cars parked both sides I ride in the "middle" of the road* very visibly to stay out of the door zone and control the progress of cars towards me in what might be a narrow remaining gap. I can always move in a bit if an approaching driver shows that they are taking care. *When I say "middle" I am still, just, on my side of the line, though of course some nitwit drivers don't appreciate this - they think that they have some sort of right to 80 per cent of the width of the road as I'm only on a bike.

Also agree about thanking drivers - I do it all the time - many many drivers are just fine/excellent and you can't assume anything about them, including often nice folk in white vans. And on the other hand have had reason to give ambulance drivers a corrective bit of mouthing on catching them up - one for using a handsfree mobile, and another just a couple of days ago for giving me a very very close pass.

I don’t ride in urban areas a great deal but when I do I’m always struck by the issue of street parking. In my local town we have many side roads, and a few main roads, where parking and road width is a real issue. I’ve previously been heavily criticised on here for my view it has become impossible for drivers or cyclists to leave adequate distance on their left in many urban areas.

This is taken to extreme in areas of Manchester where my son lives. The marked on street parking is such vehicles can only progress in one direction at a time with perhaps 2-3 feet clearance on both sides.

There is a small village which at least 80% of my car or bike journeys take me through in order to travel to or from my local town. There is no sensible alternative. On street parking here is such that to leave adequate clearance on bike or car means moving to the centre of the opposite lane along a section with restricted visibility and traffic rounding a bend from the other direction at 25-30mph.

If I took the correct position I’d be dead by now. If I waited, as I’ve been told on here I should as failure to do so is aggressive, I would cause serious traffic build up behind me. Nothing cyclists or drivers can do about such situations other than pass parked cars far to closely.
 
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Location
London
If you are absolutely forced, and it is a last resort, to enter the door zone, i assume you look carefully for signs of problems* and get out of it as soon as possible.

* Driver in seat, small turn of front wheel etc etc.

Someone was killed in london a couple of years ago by being doored into traffic. Stay safe.
 

Roadhump

Time you enjoyed wasting was not wasted
If you are absolutely forced, and it is a last resort, to enter the door zone, i assume you look carefully for signs of problems* and get out of it as soon as possible.

* Driver in seat, small turn of front wheel etc etc.

Someone was killed in london a couple of years ago by being doored into traffic. Stay safe.
A bloke, reported in the local paper to be an experienced cyclist, was killed a couple of years ago in a street round our way, which always has cars parked on both sides, and in which there is only enough room for one vehicle to pass at a time. Not being there, I don't know the traffic situation at the time of the incident, but it is another example.

Whether true or not, I have heard it said several times that being "doored" is the single biggest cause of injury and fatality to cyclists.

You can look for the clues you suggest, but in a long line of parked cars with insufficient room to get out of the door zone, it might be better to slow right down, or just avoid the road.
 

Alan O

Über Member
Location
Liverpool
You can look for the clues you suggest, but in a long line of parked cars with insufficient room to get out of the door zone, it might be better to slow right down, or just avoid the road.
That! I'll even become a pedestrian for a short stretch rather than expose myself to danger.
 
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