Water Dowsing

[s7ephanie]

you can find lay lines as well x

 

[jefmcg]

you can find lay lines as well x

Yes, because they totally exist.

 

[Tin Pot]

" Science" rubbished the existance of monster waves that sunk big ships and pooh-poohed the tales from mariners who claimed to see them. By theoritical calculations from well understood, tried and tested fluid dynamics there was a maximum size of waves. And there it rested until there were satellite pictures of said impossible waves.

Of course, some of the claims made of dowsing a clearly nonsense, likewise many of the more outlandish mechanisms. But when 8 out 10 people get a clear unmistakeable reaction walking across a car park with a couple of bits of coathanger wires it is flat out wrong to dismiss the whole thing as bunk. I have seen ultra-sceptic sciency types literally jump and drop the rods almost in fright. My own reaction was along these lines.

I did read a book on dowsing and it was indeed full of all sorts of manifest nonsense and I binned it. But as I mentioned upthread "and yet it moves"

Yeah “Science” is rubbish.

But if it’s such a self-evidently real thing, how come it is so hard to prove?

 

[Profpointy]

Unlike the existence of freak waves, it would be pretty straightforward to demonstrate that dowsing works, through a double blind trial.

One would think so. And yet if they have failed to so prove why do 8 out of 10 have a reaction, to the point of actually being startled in some cases ? This isn't a demonstration by some magician or charlattan where all kinds of trickery could be in play, but a set of highly sceptical people having a try in a car park ?

Whether they / we can or can't find water or gold or whatever under this or that trial condition is interesting and adds to knowledge even it it's ruling stuff out. But as I've said before "and yet it moves" . I'm not making this up, and I'm sure the others who I've seen trying it aren't making it up either.

The argument for it not working seems to be mainly "it's pseudoscience therefore it can't work" rather than any attempt to explain why people are getting a reaction. People getting a reaction because they're gullible idiots or whatever is very poor argument.

 

[nickyboy]

Having been a bit frivolous unthread, here's something a bit more serious

Critique of the biggest scientific study into water dowsing that was conducted in Germany in the 80s

https://www.csicop.org/si/show/testing_dowsing_the_failure_of_the_munich_experiments

TL DR? There is no evidence to support the existence of dowsing in the experiments. What is being experienced is Ideomotor movements - muscle movements caused by subconscious mental activity

 

[User482]

One would think so. And yet if they have failed to so prove why do 8 out of 10 have a reaction, to the point of actually being startled in some cases ? This isn't a demonstration by some magician or charlattan where all kinds of trickery could be in play, but a set of highly sceptical people having a try in a car park ?

Whether they / we can or can't find water or gold or whatever under this or that trial condition is interesting and adds to knowledge even it it's ruling stuff out. But as I've said before "and yet it moves" . I'm not making this up, and I'm sure the others who I've seen trying it aren't making it up either.

The argument for it not working seems to be mainly "it's pseudoscience therefore it can't work" rather than any attempt to explain why people are getting a reaction. People getting a reaction because they're gullible idiots or whatever is very poor argument.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way round. We know that placebo pills make ill people better, we don't know why, but we do it's nothing to do with the contents of the pill. I'm not disputing that people feel a reaction when dowsing but that in no way establishes a mechanism for finding water.

 

[classic33]

One would think so. And yet if they have failed to so prove why do 8 out of 10 have a reaction, to the point of actually being startled in some cases ? This isn't a demonstration by some magician or charlattan where all kinds of trickery could be in play, but a set of highly sceptical people having a try in a car park ?

Whether they / we can or can't find water or gold or whatever under this or that trial condition is interesting and adds to knowledge even it it's ruling stuff out. But as I've said before "and yet it moves" . I'm not making this up, and I'm sure the others who I've seen trying it aren't making it up either.

The argument for it not working seems to be mainly "it's pseudoscience therefore it can't work" rather than any attempt to explain why people are getting a reaction. People getting a reaction because they're gullible idiots or whatever is very poor argument.

Going off-topic entirely, three years after the Wright brothers first flight, and more in between, the US military refused to believe that powered flight was impossible. Bleriot crossing the Channel didn't convince them either.

 

[Tin Pot]

One would think so. And yet if they have failed to so prove why do 8 out of 10 have a reaction, to the point of actually being startled in some cases ? This isn't a demonstration by some magician or charlattan where all kinds of trickery could be in play, but a set of highly sceptical people having a try in a car park ?

Whether they / we can or can't find water or gold or whatever under this or that trial condition is interesting and adds to knowledge even it it's ruling stuff out. But as I've said before "and yet it moves" . I'm not making this up, and I'm sure the others who I've seen trying it aren't making it up either.

The argument for it not working seems to be mainly "it's pseudoscience therefore it can't work" rather than any attempt to explain why people are getting a reaction. People getting a reaction because they're gullible idiots or whatever is very poor argument.

No, people are saying it can’t be proven to work, therefore I will treat it as rubbish until proven otherwise.

Like many people you seem to think Science is there to prove things right, it’s not. It is a mechanism for determining when you are wrong, not when you are right. This means it can change as knowledge advances.

 

[jefmcg]

One would think so. And yet if they have failed to so prove why do 8 out of 10 have a reaction, to the point of actually being startled in some cases ? This isn't a demonstration by some magician or charlattan where all kinds of trickery could be in play, but a set of highly sceptical people having a try in a car park ?

It's an unstable equilibrium. Being startled that the stick suddenly moves is like being startled that the ball "suddenly" rolls off in (c)

"Goat entrails predict the future" "No they don't" "Then how does science explain the fact that goats have entrails? Huh?"

 

[nickyboy]

I think you're looking at it the wrong way round. We know that placebo pills make ill people better, we don't know why, but we do it's nothing to do with the contents of the pill. I'm not disputing that people feel a reaction when dowsing but that in no way establishes a mechanism for finding water.

Actually I think dowsing could be very useful. The mechanism is pretty straightforward....dowser subconsciously responds to external stimuli (such as topography, vegetation, sound etc etc) and converts that into muscle movement which you see in the movement of the dowsing rods. Seems people can't consciously process these stimuli as effectively

The problem for dowsers is they keep insisting on "earth rays" or some other unknown force exerted on the dowsing rods. That's hogwash and undermines the usefulness of a good dowser's skill

 

[Profpointy]

It's an unstable equilibrium. Being startled that the stick suddenly moves is like being startled that the ball "suddenly" rolls off in (c)

View attachment 384596
"Goat entrails predict the future" "No they don't" "Then how does science explain the fact that goats have entrails? Huh?"

The first - well yes I know that. The rods / twig amplify your own movements. But why is the reaction so amplified there in the first place. And why does it seem to be in a line across the ground. And why do 8 out 10 people have the same reactions in the same place. And why do you feel your own muscles tensing in the same place.

Your 2nd point is dishonest and a logical fallacy as you well know. To use a fallacious argument to defend science is a bit silly isn't it

 

[User482]

Going off-topic entirely, three years after the Wright brothers first flight, and more in between, the US military refused to believe that powered flight was impossible. Bleriot crossing the Channel didn't convince them either.

Where did you read that?

 

[Profpointy]

Having been a bit frivolous unthread, here's something a bit more serious

Critique of the biggest scientific study into water dowsing that was conducted in Germany in the 80s

https://www.csicop.org/si/show/testing_dowsing_the_failure_of_the_munich_experiments

TL DR? There is no evidence to support the existence of dowsing in the experiments. What is being experienced is Ideomotor movements - muscle movements caused by subconscious mental activity

Muscle movements caused by subconcious activity is true - to me personally quite clearly so as I can feel it. Again to me at least the interesting question is subconcious mental activity in reaction to what ?7

Some of the anti-dowsing arguments upthread seem akin to claiming there's no such thing as a placebo because homeopathy is bunk rather than having any real logic or rationality.

 

[Profpointy]

Where did you read that?

It's on the internet so it must be true !

 

[classic33]

It's on the internet so it must be true !

I read it in Janes, those people who publish the lists of aircraft.