We're at fault on the roads, over deaths involving HGV's

[classic33]

Dear lorry driver, are you going to vote for restrictions to your activities - NO
Dear Lorry Driver, are you going to admit that large numbers of your colleagues drive dangerously - NO
Dear Lorry driver, would you rather blame somene else for your shortcomings and restrict their activities - YES


There you are .... the entire survey in three questions

That was only one question out of the survey. Survey was industry based, owners, managers & drivers. Also the only one that we, cyclists were mentioned in.

 

[theclaud]

This was the bit I was hoping was a joke.

I think it's a fair point if not taken too literally. Men rape on the basis that they have an extremely good chance of getting away with it. They know they are more likely to get away with offences against women who will be blamed for whatever happens to them, and they know, instinctively or otherwise, that the justice system and society at large shares their perception that women invite rape, and some women invite it more than others. I made a connection on a recent thread on a similar topic about the way the police have responded to men killing women by placing curfews on women, and the way that people respond to lorries killing cyclists by attempting to places restrictions and prohibitions on cyclists.

 

[theclaud]

This isn't a thread about rape, so I'll just make this one comment. I think we both know that what a rape victim is wearing has nothing whatsoever to do with her/his chances of getting raped. It's also pretty clear that rapists don't tend to consider things like probabilities of punishment before they rape people. So the original suggestion is not at all a fair comment, and in fact buys into the whole myth that if you want to reduce your chances of getting raped you shouldn't wear a short skirt or behave in any way that could be construed as provocative.

I take your point, and it's arguably that all analogies involving rape are ill-advised in terms of what we know about how these threads tend to proceed. All analogies fall apart somewhere if pressed too far. However I do think you're wrong about perpetrators not considering the probabilities of punishment - they consider them inasmuch as they know there is very little possibility of being held responsible for their actions at all, and insofar as they are called to account will deploy all the available myths in their defence. My point is only that the myth Buggi references is not of her making, and indeed I interpreted her post as being critical of it.

 

[buggi]

This was the bit I was hoping was a joke.

No that's not a joke, the details of the survey was part of an overall report into the behaviour of rapists. Rapists are known to target women who are drunk or dressed provocatively as they know Barristers can use it to sway the opinion of the jury in court, and the victim can be demonised in court. The victim could, for all the jury know, have only slept with one man in her entire life, but because she happened to be out in a short skirt and got a bit worse the wear for drink, she becomes to the one asking for it. it's a well known common tactic used by barristers which the rape charities are opposed to.

it's not unlike the blame culture that a cyclist deserves his head injury because he wasn't wearing a helmet... despite that the head injury would not have been caused had it not been for the reckless driving of the moton.

Really? That was in the survey?

well, the general public sit on juries don't they? and it was a public survey. I used to work in crown court for a defence lawyer. It's shocking at just how many get away with it, because the barrister convinces the jury she asked for it (but that's an whole other thread) just as drivers get away with it because the cyclist didn't wear a helmet/hi viz bla de bla

 

[buggi]

This isn't a thread about rape, so I'll just make this one comment. I think we both know that what a rape victim is wearing has nothing whatsoever to do with her/his chances of getting raped. It's also pretty clear that rapists don't tend to consider things like probabilities of punishment before they rape people. So the original suggestion is not at all a fair comment, and in fact buys into the whole myth that if you want to reduce your chances of getting raped you shouldn't wear a short skirt or behave in any way that could be construed as provocative.

the problem is Tiny that a vast majority of the public are not educated about this. we know it, but unfortunately a lot of people still think that way. I sat in court once while a girl was ripped apart for wearing boots, leggings and a jumper. provocative? not in any way... but by the time the barrister had finished, it was the most provocative outfit a woman could wear. Imagine if she'd been wearing a short skirt. And yes, they were found not guilty. It is slightly off topic tho so to get back to the original thread its similar to the public not being educated about cyclists, thinking we purposely ride under lorries just to annoy them.

 

[buggi]

I take your point, and it's arguably that all analogies involving rape are ill-advised in terms of what we know about how these threads tend to proceed. All analogies fall apart somewhere if pressed too far. However I do think you're wrong about perpetrators not considering the probabilities of punishment - they consider them inasmuch as they know there is very little possibility of being held responsible for their actions at all, and insofar as they are called to account will deploy all the available myths in their defence. My point is only that the myth Buggi references is not of her making, and indeed I interpreted her post as being critical of it.

no i'm not critical of it, I believe it. There is a lot of evidence, including admissions from convicted rapists, that they do target women who dress provocatively or are drunk, not because they believe that they are asking for it, but because they can convince others they were asking for it. It's hard enough to be convicted, so any other spanner they can throw in the cogs of justice, they will use it.

Similar to a driver convincing a judge that he's a good driver really and that cyclist... well, he wasn't wearing a helmet so no wonder he died!

 

[Ern1e]

Just to go sideways a second @buggi I know of one lad accused of rape found guilty locked up for quite some time and all the way through the case said he had not done it, but the jurie found him guilty and after a few in the slammer the woman admited that it was all a load of po she had made up to get at him because he would not have sex with her at the time. Now I am not saying all rapist's are inocent but we need to also be careful when passing blame on to this that or what ever and as to who is at fault wether it be driving ralated or what all parties IMO could use some training at some point lets face it you can't just jump in a truck/bus or car and just drive off but on our bicycles yes you can with little training on road rules etc.When I got my first bike as a child the school at that time offered the cycling profiency test which my mother (bless her) made me take ! (I also wore the badge with pride lol) which 40+ years ago traffic was nothing like today ! ok thats the little rant over with and to conclude training yes,segragation not really but install some decent cycling infrastructure please and this may just help things along.

 

[theclaud]

[QUOTE 2868449, member: 30090"]C&A is that way if you want to start a thread on it. ==>[/quote]

In case we need some duff 80s Dutch party-wear?

 

[buggi]

Just to go sideways a second @buggi I know of one lad accused of rape found guilty locked up for quite some time and all the way through the case said he had not done it, but the jurie found him guilty and after a few in the slammer the woman admited that it was all a load of po she had made up to get at him because he would not have sex with her at the time. Now I am not saying all rapist's are inocent but we need to also be careful when passing blame on to this that or what ever and as to who is at fault wether it be driving ralated or what all parties IMO could use some training at some point lets face it you can't just jump in a truck/bus or car and just drive off but on our bicycles yes you can with little training on road rules etc.When I got my first bike as a child the school at that time offered the cycling profiency test which my mother (bless her) made me take ! (I also wore the badge with pride lol) which 40+ years ago traffic was nothing like today ! ok thats the little rant over with and to conclude training yes,segragation not really but install some decent cycling infrastructure please and this may just help things along.

hold on minute, why are you jumping down my neck? Yes some women do lie but they are very much the minority . There a far more rapists roaming free than innocent men locked up. But that wasn't my point, my point was the perception its the cyclists fault was similar to the report/survey i read that its a well known tactic for rapists to target particular women as they know the public has a certain opinion of them. ... I said it reminded me of the OPs survey... The public have a certain opinion of cyclists and they blame us. It wasn't meant to descend into a who did what or blame the bloke, it was a comparison of the two surveys and how each seemed to blame the victim.

2nd if you read earlier on in the thread i specifically said i thought cycle safety should come from all angles, one of those angles being cycle training which i fully supported. So please read the thread before you jump on me bcoz i can assure you we are on the same page here.

 

[Ern1e]

If segregation no but infrastructure yes, what sort of infrastructure do you have in mind?

Something along the lines of the Dutch would be very good @Adrian but then my answer was "not really "which I should have expanded on and should have continued to say that total segragation can't imo be a total reality so we shall just have to put up with waht we have and I also was on a rant so sorry sir (lick lick grovel)

 

[Ern1e]

hold on minute, why are you jumping down my neck? Yes some women do lie but they are very much the minority . There a far more rapists roaming free than innocent men locked up. But that wasn't my point, my point was the perception its the cyclists fault was similar to the report/survey i read that its a well known tactic for rapists to target particular women as they know the public has a certain opinion of them. ... I said it reminded me of the OPs survey... The public have a certain opinion of cyclists and they blame us. It wasn't meant to descend into a who did what or blame the bloke, it was a comparison of the two surveys and how each seemed to blame the victim.

2nd if you read earlier on in the thread i specifically said i thought cycle safety should come from all angles, one of those angles being cycle training which i fully supported. So please read the thread before you jump on me bcoz i can assure you we are on the same page here.

Again sorry @buggi I was not trying to aim anything at you what so ever it was an atempt to well more of a rant in an attempt to redirect the thread a little please accept my most humble grovels sir.

 

[Ern1e]

What if homicidal drivers tend to go for a particular type of cyclist? What cyclist type would it be I wonder.

Uhm now thats a thought or two I remember one guy here who during the mid sixtys was a very competative cyclist and he did tell me of one training run he did on which he had just finished work and went out in overalls and he could not belive the space drivers gave him versus the times he was in his racing kit ! his opinion was they think what you wear is an indication as to how good or not you are so may be lycra clad perhaps ?

 

[buggi]

What if homicidal drivers tend to go for a particular type of cyclist? What cyclist type would it be I wonder.

ones without helmets. ?
it wasn't the thing about why they did it i was comparing, it was the thing about public perception and victim blaming.

 

[buggi]

Again sorry @buggi I was not trying to aim anything at you what so ever it was an atempt to well more of a rant in an attempt to redirect the thread a little please accept my most humble grovels sir.

lol accepted. i didnt mean for the thread to go off topic either mate. And its Miss

 

[theclaud]

I always wear a long blond wig and a pink tutu over my Lycra. I get loads of space.

Also try this: http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/ride-wide.147297/