What volcanic ash?

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Norm

Guest
The only evidence I can find is that one plane flew very close to an active volcano, close enough that the ash filled the cabin, which shut down the engines until the plane dropped out of the thick dust cloud. It was dark so they couldn't see the cloud they flew into.

They didn't know why it happened as they hadn't previously been any alerts relating ash to aircraft damage but, when another plane did the same thing a few days later, they figured it out.

It has happened once more since then.

I agree that there is a need for some evaluation but I don't see the correlation between flying through a dust cloud thick enough to penetrate an aircraft's cabin (the passengers could smell the sulphur!) and the current closure of European airspace.

It remains, IMO, a knee jerk reaction but that doesn't make me any less grateful for it. :blush: :laugh:

I think that NATS have a huge vested interest and the aviation regulators have a vast history in over-reactions. If the same level of security was put on other forms of transport (and it would be easier, cheaper and have a greater impact if they were to destroy Hangar Lane than to bring down a 747) we would never be able to leave our homes. IMO.
 

mr Mag00

rising member
Location
Deepest Dorset
its setting off my asthma too
 

buggi

Bird Saviour
Location
Solihull
Spinney said:
Read the wiki link about Speedbird 9.

The ash that stopped its engines was not visible either.

Would you be happy taking off in a plane when there is a very real possibility that ALL its engines may stop in flight?

there is also another one, where a plane took a divert to "have a look" at a volcano erupting. Ash got in the engines and everyone died :laugh:


dellzeqq said:
The flight crew had never been trained how to perform the calculations. To be safe they re-ran the numbers three times to be absolutely, positively sure the refuelers hadn't made any mistakes; each time using 1.77 pounds/liter as the specific gravity factor. This was the factor written on the refueler's slip and used on all of the other planes in Air Canada's fleet. The factor the refuelers and the crew should have used on the brand new, all-metric 767 was .8 kg/liter of kerosene.

I'm not so sure.........

i saw this on Discovery channel. it was not the pilots that did the calculation, it was the ground crew. they hadn't been told the calculations had changed to metric and the investigation found the paperwork to be unclear about it.

the pilots were interviewed. the captain said that when he was bringing the plane down there were two boys cycling on the runway, but they had their backs to him. there was nothing he could do about it because he had no way of warning them, and because he was gliding in, it was pretty much a silent approach. he thought he was going to land on top of them. what a decision to have to make! luckily, one of the boys looked back and they got out of the way at the last minute.

apparently, it's on tv now that they are doing test flights. i certainly wouldn't be on it! why are people in such a hurry to get back.
the volcano could erupt for months yet, but it's the ice that's causing all the problems so once that melts it should be ok. thing is, there's quite a lot of ice. :blush:

i saw UFO's late last night. must have been. 2 lights in the sky. looked like a plane. then 2 more next to it. looked like 2 planes. then they disappeared and then another 2 lights... looked like another plane taking the same path. too high for helicopters. planes are grounded. definitely aliens then.
 

BrumJim

Forum Stalwart (won't take the hint and leave...)
Mad Doug Biker said:
I would say Mull, but that's a naarrow gauge railway, but there is a standard gauge line on one of the Channel Islands (I kid you not). Guernsey ...or is it it Alderney ...or is it ...anyway, it's one of those.

They use and industrial shunter and an old London Underground set in push pull formation.

Oh yes and the sunset was crap here!

Correct:
Alderney is the smallest I know of.
 

buggi

Bird Saviour
Location
Solihull
Norm said:
The only evidence I can find is that one plane flew very close to an active volcano, close enough that the ash filled the cabin, which shut down the engines until the plane dropped out of the thick dust cloud. It was dark so they couldn't see the cloud they flew into.

They didn't know why it happened as they hadn't previously been any alerts relating ash to aircraft damage but, when another plane did the same thing a few days later, they figured it out.

It has happened once more since then.

I agree that there is a need for some evaluation but I don't see the correlation between flying through a dust cloud thick enough to penetrate an aircraft's cabin (the passengers could smell the sulphur!) and the current closure of European airspace.

It remains, IMO, a knee jerk reaction but that doesn't make me any less grateful for it. :blush: :laugh:

I think that NATS have a huge vested interest and the aviation regulators have a vast history in over-reactions. If the same level of security was put on other forms of transport (and it would be easier, cheaper and have a greater impact if they were to destroy Hangar Lane than to bring down a 747) we would never be able to leave our homes. IMO.

it's not a knee jerk reaction. the problem is different with this volcano than others. it's the ice that is causing the problem. It causes the hot rock to cool too quickly and produce very fine particles of glass that is about 0.1mm or less (compared to the usual 1mm or above). Usually 1mm falls to the ground within a few hundred miles, usually by rain (water forms around the particles) but 0.1mm gets carried on the wind for thousands of miles. if it gets into aircraft engines... well.. you're a gonna.

In normal circumstances, plans would just be diverted around the area of the volcano, but because of the ice, the ash from this volcano is being carried thousands of miles.

o yea, apparently, if you get hte dust on your car, wait until it rains to wash it off. it's dangerous to wash it off if it hasn't been dampened down.
 

mangaman

Guest
Norm said:
I think that NATS have a huge vested interest and the aviation regulators have a vast history in over-reactions.

I bow to your experience on this, but relatively they have much less of a vested interest than a cartel of airlines.

NATS would be blamed if they gave the go-ahead for a flight that crashed and will tend to be risk averse.

The airlines will go bust in a few days unless they get back to work and will be prepared to take greater risks.

As someone supposedly flying on Tuesday I'll take the risk-averse line :laugh:

Also as I said before I don't remember the airlines protesting last Thursday when it began. The risks haven't changed, it's the airlines' attitudes that have changed as time drags on and their bottom line looks dodgier.
 

Norm

Guest
Indeed, although I don't think that the pressure is just coming from the airlines. I reckon that those many people who are not where they thought they would be are putting a fair amount of pressure on the airlines.

I also think that the regulators are re-thinking their risk strategy, given the possibility that their current regs could close down European airspace for months.

Apparently, there was one plane flew out of Heathrow today. My kids came rushing in to tell me. I didn't think it worth leaving my coffee to watch, though. :thumbsup:
 
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OP
Globalti

Globalti

Legendary Member
Anybody see the press conference outside No 10 yesterday with Mandy, Adonis and 3 other ministers? I thought they were quite good while they were addressing a serious issue and not just playing politics.
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
And here we have European Directive 261. Apparently the airlines have a duty of care to all those who are stranded - and for however long they're stranded. They're not happy.

Saw a propellor aircraft in flight yesterday. Are these not affected?
 
Search and Rescue Helicopters have been flying throughout on a case by case basis.
Mind you these sorties are mainly low level flights.
 

Spinney

Bimbleur extraordinaire
Location
Back up north
I wonder if all the passengers demanding the airlines fly would be happy to sign a disclaimer before take-off, with words to the effect that they accept they might die if ash gets into the engines...

There was talk the other day of cargo flights being resumed, which seems a sensible first step - except that there is still a flight crew at risk. Maybe volunteers only, for triple pay?

(But how do you know it isn't 'Volunteers - you, you and you!'?)
 
OP
OP
Globalti

Globalti

Legendary Member
dellzeqq said:
Saw a propellor aircraft in flight yesterday. Are these not affected?

Small aircraft can glide a little more efficiently than a large jet, which needs to be descending at a rate of about 1 in 10 in order to maintain enough air speed to remain aerodynamic.

In any case small aircraft don't fly high enough and even if they could, damage caused by abrasive dust is likely be less expensive in a piston engine than in a turbo fan running at very high temperatures, where it can actually vitrify itself to the fan blades as well as wrecking the bearings. I would imagine that a larger propellor plane with turbo props would be subject to the same dangers though.
 
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