Wheels as an Upgrade?

[Yellow Saddle]

I'm not. The Genesis is not the only bike I've upgraded wheels on, my Pearson and my Dawes both had wheel upgrades to them, I could tell the difference on all of them. If I find myself in a position where I can upgrade the wheels on my Eastway I will.

I can also tell the difference between all my bikes, but not in the dark. You cannot feel bearing smoothness or bearing drag unless there is something big wrong with one of them.
Bearing drag is in the order of one or two grams of force against you. The best offer perhaps 10% better drag than the worst. This is less drag than wind drag when walking on a still, windless day. I kid you not. Where does the most drag in a bearing come from? Fluid drag from the grease inside. Then, seal drag and then, a long way behind the balls rolling in their grooves. This is how hidden and small bearing drag is. It is imperceptible.

Then, most folk have problems identifying a rough bearing when they spin the wheel and hold the axle in their hands. How do you propose you'll feel it from the saddle?

 

[Deleted member 1258]

I can also tell the difference between all my bikes, but not in the dark. You cannot feel bearing smoothness or bearing drag unless there is something big wrong with one of them.
Bearing drag is in the order of one or two grams of force against you. The best offer perhaps 10% better drag than the worst. This is less drag than wind drag when walking on a still, windless day. I kid you not. Where does the most drag in a bearing come from? Fluid drag from the grease inside. Then, seal drag and then, a long way behind the balls rolling in their grooves. This is how hidden and small bearing drag is. It is imperceptible.

Then, most folk have problems identifying a rough bearing when they spin the wheel and hold the axle in their hands. How do you propose you'll feel it from the saddle?

I notice your post only deals with bearings, there's no mention of material quality or build quality, both of which have an impact on how the wheel feels and how it performs.
If you look at my Eastway it was on special offer at £440 last year, I think the full price was around £550. This is for a bike with a full 10 speed Tiagra group set on an aluminium frame with carbon fork and is similar spec to my Verenti which I brought in 2010 for £900. The Eastway has been built down to a price, they will have cut corners, the wheelset on it is very basic, if I do my homework and find out where that wheelset sits in the scheme of things I should be able to find a wheelset of a higher quality and that will make a difference to how the bike feels and performs, a difference I will be able to feel.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

I notice your post only deals with bearings, there's no mention of material quality or build quality, both of which have an impact on how the wheel feels and how it performs.
If you look at my Eastway it was on special offer at £440 last year, I think the full price was around £550. This is for a bike with a full 10 speed Tiagra group set on an aluminium frame with carbon fork and is similar spec to my Verenti which I brought in 2010 for £900. The Eastway has been built down to a price, they will have cut corners, the wheelset on it is very basic, if I do my homework and find out where that wheelset sits in the scheme of things I should be able to find a wheelset of a higher quality and that will make a difference to how the bike feels and performs, a difference I will be able to feel.

I can extend my statement to build quality and material quality if you like. I have measured wheel deflections under all possible load conditions and it may surprise you to know that a wheel with a reasonably fat guy on it deflects less than the thickness of a sheet of office paper. It cannot be felt, because a tyre deflects by, as you can guess, a magnitude of hundreds more. The variation in 1PSI of pressure is twenty times that of wheel deflection. Further, wheel deflection for a given wheel is not affected by build quality since steel (spokes) deflect according to Hookean principles absolutely linearly. basically this means no matter how much load you put on them, they deflect only so much/kg no matter the initial tension.

Deep section rims deflect less than box section rims but once again, the deflection is small, so differences are imperceptible.

As for performance, how do you propose I tackle that for you? Name your attribute and I'll address it.

I don't see how all your examples and prices fit into the scheme of things. Point is, you cannot tell the difference.

 

[Deleted member 1258]

I can extend my statement to build quality and material quality if you like. I have measured wheel deflections under all possible load conditions and it may surprise you to know that a wheel with a reasonably fat guy on it deflects less than the thickness of a sheet of office paper. It cannot be felt, because a tyre deflects by, as you can guess, a magnitude of hundreds more. The variation in 1PSI of pressure is twenty times that of wheel deflection. Further, wheel deflection for a given wheel is not affected by build quality since steel (spokes) deflect according to Hookean principles absolutely linearly. basically this means no matter how much load you put on them, they deflect only so much/kg no matter the initial tension.

Deep section rims deflect less than box section rims but once again, the deflection is small, so differences are imperceptible.

As for performance, how do you propose I tackle that for you? Name your attribute and I'll address it.

I don't see how all your examples and prices fit into the scheme of things. Point is, you cannot tell the difference.

The point is I can, I feel it through the saddle, I feel it through the feet, I feel it through the hands.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

The point is I can, I feel it through the saddle, I feel it through the feet, I feel it through the hands.

Now you are lying to yourself that you are not fooling yourself.

Place a sheet of paper on the floor of a suitably large place with a smooth floor. Plug your ears and ride over it repeatedly at any speed you can muster. Come back and describe to us what it is you felt. I say you have to plug your ears because the paper gives an audio feedback that gives the game away. The thickness of the paper is the amount of give in the wheel when a 90kg person creates when he sits on the bike. It is about three times that when he jumps a kerb, but still imperceptible.

I believe that acoustic feedback is one of the great lie-tellers of cycling. The different sounds different tyres make cause us to extrapolate and assign other properties than just that - different sound.

 

[Deleted member 1258]

Now you are lying to yourself that you are not fooling yourself.

Place a sheet of paper on the floor of a suitably large place with a smooth floor. Plug your ears and ride over it repeatedly at any speed you can muster. Come back and describe to us what it is you felt. I say you have to plug your ears because the paper gives an audio feedback that gives the game away. The thickness of the paper is the amount of give in the wheel when a 90kg person creates when he sits on the bike. It is about three times that when he jumps a kerb, but still imperceptible.

I believe that acoustic feedback is one of the great lie-tellers of cycling. The different sounds different tyres make cause us to extrapolate and assign other properties than just that - different sound.

Now you are lying to yourself that you are not fooling yourself.

Place a sheet of paper on the floor of a suitably large place with a smooth floor. Plug your ears and ride over it repeatedly at any speed you can muster. Come back and describe to us what it is you felt. I say you have to plug your ears because the paper gives an audio feedback that gives the game away. The thickness of the paper is the amount of give in the wheel when a 90kg person creates when he sits on the bike. It is about three times that when he jumps a kerb, but still imperceptible.

I believe that acoustic feedback is one of the great lie-tellers of cycling. The different sounds different tyres make cause us to extrapolate and assign other properties than just that - different sound.

I'm not lying to anybody, I know what I felt, and I aint farting around with bits of paper

 

[Yellow Saddle]

And that dogged stubbornness is exactly why things like religion and astrology has such a strong foothold in the human psyche.

 

[Deleted member 1258]

And that dogged stubbornness is exactly why things like religion and astrology has such a strong foothold in the human psyche.

Now you are going off topic. I know what I experienced, I know what I felt, with more than one wheel upgrade, you're now trying to convince me what happened didn't happen, well it did and I know it did, I'm sorry you have your views and I have my views and we will never agree on this.

 

[Spoked Wheels]

I mostly noticed the bike felt a lot nicer to ride, it also seemed that I wasn't working as hard when I was riding the bike.

One possibility of why you might have felt you weren't working as hard when riding the bike, would be that your cup and cone hub had the bearings too tight.

I came across a situation like this very recently.......

A very good friend of mine who I built a set of wheels for, maybe 4 years ago, was saying something very similar to what you said..... his new bike and wheels with cartridge bearings felt so much better. I questioned his statement so he said, I'll bring the bike round. We were in my garden when he showed me, with the bike on the stand, the rear wheel would only manage maybe 15 to 20 seconds of free turning then my own bike's rear wheel would go for much much longer. I said "let's take a look at that wheel then", he removed the wheel and handed it to me..... I quickly checked for a little play on the axle and I thought I felt a tiny bit so I opened the hub and I found some pitting, not too much though. Serviced it and adjusted it properly but the wheel still showed the same problem.... I was puzzled for a minute..... then when I removed the wheel myself I noticed it was hard to remove it. It turned out the bike was an old 7 speed that was never cold set, force was used to open up the dropsouts and fit the wheel (I did the same with an old bike myself ) I got my tools out and with his approval I did cold set the dropouts.... back went the rear wheel and this time it was a very easy job, my friend commented. Did the same test again and the wheel turned freely for about as long as my own rear wheel.

Most of the time, tyres can give a bike a very different feeling so that could also be a possibility.

 

[derrick]

If by "sealed bearings" you mean cartridge bearings, there's a convincing (to me anyway) argument that a cub and cone bearing is better suited to the lateral forces a bike wheel puts on the bearing. Keep them maintained and properly adjusted and life will be good.

But how many people maintain there wheels properly? I would have thought sealed bearings are better for most, Not sure i entirely agree with the your thoughts on the choice of bearings.

 

[Deleted member 1258]

But how many people maintain there wheels properly? I would have thought sealed bearings are better for most, Not sure i entirely agree with the your thoughts on the choice of bearings.

Replacement wheels have done over 3000 miles and apart from the back wheel needing trueing after hitting a pothole I haven't had to touch them, fit and forget just how I like them.

 

[derrick]

Replacement wheels have done over 3000 miles and apart from the back wheel needing trueing after hitting a pothole I haven't had to touch them, fit and forget just how I like them.

I have some mavics with sealed bearings well over 10 thousand miles, bearings still silky smooth. The rim got bent when the wife got knocked of her bike, but i have just bought a new rim, When fitted it will look like and feel like a new wheel.

 

[JimboJames1972]

Thanks to all for the input chaps.

I guess my first point of upgrade will be my own fitness and weight, that should be easy enough to do.

While I'm working on that I will swap out my "winter-ish" tyres back to some good quality, dry weather ones that will hopefully still keep my prosterior comfortable and lower rolling resistance a tad. With a bit of luck that will see me through the summer and I'll look to sone fancy new rims after that.

Thanks again to all,

J