Where were the women?

[J4CKO]

two bras

Now I am confused.....

 

[Wheeledweenie]

I wonder if men tend (and I'm sorry, this is a terrible generalisation), to either take over the job themselves, or rattle through instructions in such a speedy and lofty way, that the woman gets left behind. It's all down to them thinking, oh, if she can do it, I can, there's no mystery (and that applies to riding as much as technical stuff). Its a bit like the way mechanics used to bamboozle women at garages, when it was a simple thing that needed doing.

The timing of me reading that it priceless.

I had a puncture this morning and some guy struck up converstion and then attempted to completely take over my repair, even taking the tyre levers out of my hands because he assumed I couldn't do it. Sheesh.

I've shown a few women at work and they've all agreed they'd rather had a woman show them how because they're worried they'll be patronised. The irony is that it was a man who showed me how when I was stranded and he was really helpful without being at all patronising.

On a completely different subject, I'd agree with ttcycle that ethnicity is as relevant as gender when it comes to cycling promotion. A good example is a club that was set up in Bradford specifically to cater for muslim women. Not only was basic maintenance and technique needed but the women also needed advice and help finding clothes that they were able to cycle in while maintaining the level of modesty they felt comfortable with.

 

[Wheeledweenie]

Now I am confused.....

Oh for goodness' sake, I'd been bra shopping!

 

[Moodyman]

ttcycle - you're right that immigrant communities are not represented in the clubs/professional circuit as much as white middle class males. I think economics as well as cultural differences play a big part. But this is true in all sports, not just cycling.

First & second generation immigrants are usually amongst the lowest socio-economic groups and their priorities point towards family sustenance. Sports are seen as a costly distraction.

Its not until these groups move up the social ladder, that they can accommodate hobbies and pastimes into their life. This is now evident in the black and South Asian communities where we're seeing more youngsters pursuing professional sports.

Wheeledweenie - the Bradford club you mentioned was very well received and a similar scheme was run in neighbouring Keighley.

 

[ttcycle]

ttcycle - you're right that immigrant communities are not represented in the clubs/professional circuit as much as white middle class males. I think economics as well as cultural differences play a big part. But this is true in all sports, not just cycling.

First & second generation immigrants are usually amongst the lowest socio-economic groups and their priorities point towards family sustenance. Sports are seen as a costly distraction.

Its not until these groups move up the social ladder, that they can accommodate hobbies and pastimes into their life. This is now evident in the black and South Asian communities where we're seeing more youngsters pursuing professional sports.

Wheeledweenie - the Bradford club you mentioned was very well received and a similar scheme was run in neighbouring Keighley.

I disagree with your part about moving up the social ladder as I think cycling (and this is beyond the cycling for sport) should be available and accessible to all- a factor to be considered is cost. I'm sure similar factors yet different ones affect the willingness to cycle for utility/commute purposes, in fact one reason for the boom in cycling in London (I can only speak for London as that is where I am) is the spiralling cost of public transport and the frustrations with the service, however the difficulties with people on lower incomes (ethncitiy aside), in less stable/more temporary work situations (ie C2W is not an option) is that the original outlay of purchasing a decent bike that will last a person well is off putting in combination with percieved safety.

 

[Arch]

I'm not saying they can't be overcome but that they start off being hurdles which they must pass before they consider the bike as a possible form of transportation.

That's interesting. One might say they are just things you take into account. In the Netherlands or Denmark, you have kids to carry, you get a Bakfiets or a Christiania. It's like moving from a sports car to an estate car (or MPV or 4x4 or whatever). No one sees that as a 'hurdle', because we're so car centric. It's like someone said (here, or another thread?) about 'the weekly shop'. You only do a weekly shop because you have a car to do it with, because that's the norm and because it's the norm, the supermarkets are all edge of town, so you need a car to get to them...

I'm digressing a bit, but it comes down to the norm (in our case in the UK, cars) being the norm, and anything else being alien. I doubt many women don't drive because they don't know how to change the spark plugs. (assuming they still have bloody spark plugs, last time I looked under a car bonnet, it was all hidden under a plastic cover, and nothing was recognisable).

The other thing about being able to fix things is that if a car breaks down, you are stuck there, whereas if a bike breaks down, unless you've managed to totally jam a wheel, you can still get it home, albeit pushing it. So in fact, if ignorance of repair is the issue, women should cycle, and shouldn't have cars...

 

[summerdays]

That's interesting. One might say they are just things you take into account. In the Netherlands or Denmark, you have kids to carry, you get a Bakfiets or a Christiania. It's like moving from a sports car to an estate car (or MPV or 4x4 or whatever). No one sees that as a 'hurdle', because we're so car centric. It's like someone said (here, or another thread?) about 'the weekly shop'. You only do a weekly shop because you have a car to do it with, because that's the norm and because it's the norm, the supermarkets are all edge of town, so you need a car to get to them...

I'm just saying that they seem to be hurdles - and thinking about getting a £1000 bike when you haven't ever seen isn't an obvious answer. I've seen tandems in Bristol, including a few ones where the child is in front, but that's pretty rare - and I'm someone who notices bikes. I've not seen any Bakfiets or Christiania's in the flesh. Whereas a parent sees the other Mum's getting her kids out of the really big car and thinks ... yes I could do with a bigger car.

Anyway I've just done a dash and grab to Tesco's, and saw on route 2 females and 9 males, and 4 unknowns on bikes (it was getting dark and starting to rain).

 

[al78]

I'm digressing a bit, but it comes down to the norm (in our case in the UK, cars) being the norm, and anything else being alien. I doubt many women don't drive because they don't know how to change the spark plugs. (assuming they still have bloody spark plugs, last time I looked under a car bonnet, it was all hidden under a plastic cover, and nothing was recognisable).

The other thing about being able to fix things is that if a car breaks down, you are stuck there, whereas if a bike breaks down, unless you've managed to totally jam a wheel, you can still get it home, albeit pushing it. So in fact, if ignorance of repair is the issue, women should cycle, and shouldn't have cars...

I don't think the bike-car comparison works particularly well here, for several reasons:

1. Cars are more robust than bikes, partly due to the components being more solid (weight isn't nearly so much an issue as with bikes), partly because everything is enclosed, and thus they will in general suffer mechanical problems and require replacement parts much less frequently than bikes.

2. If your car does break down in the middle of nowhere, you can ring a breakdown company and if you are a lone woman, you will be prioritised. They will either fix your car at the roadside or take you to a garage (possibly take you home, I don't know about that). AFAIK no such service exists for bikes so although you can wheel it home it could be a very long walk if you are unlucky (would you really be happy to walk for an hour in the weather we are having at the moment?).

3. If something goes wrong with your bike that you need the services of a LBS to fix then it can be a week or more before they can repair it for you. When something goes wrong with your car you can mostly get it repaired the same day and in some cases get a courtesy car whilst it is being repaired.

 

[chap]

Ethnicity a factor in cycling?!?

Chap I do think that ethnicity as one element comes into it- the way people view the world and yes London does have a high proportion of people from all over the world is different and this also influences how they see bikes, cars, public transport ie culture.

We don't look at the world in the same way and to assume so is a bit unhelpful when looking at barriers to cycling. Surely it's be noted there is a gender difference, why is it so odd that there's possibly an age/ethncitiy etc diffference?

Cycling on a club/competitively level is definitely over represented by white middle class men which has been mentioned before on the forums- it interests me to know why...to ignore it as a factor would be missing out on a possible area that could provide a wealth of info. Equally it may not but I am prepared to be open minded about it.

So what you have basically described there is a cultural view, not ones ethnicity per se?

The reason I believe you're discussing culture is because each argument you have given, in addition to the coupling of age and ethnicity would point towards this.

The only thing which makes me doubt my assumption is that you have chosen the difference between men and women which in addition to cultural can be seen as acknowledgement of physical (esp. mental) differences.

It would be unhelpful for me to go on, until you clarify. Are you meaning that ones cultural outlook ought to be considered or is this tending towards the innate?

 

[Arch]

I'm just saying that they seem to be hurdles - and thinking about getting a £1000 bike when you haven't ever seen isn't an obvious answer. I've seen tandems in Bristol, including a few ones where the child is in front, but that's pretty rare - and I'm someone who notices bikes. I've not seen any Bakfiets or Christiania's in the flesh. Whereas a parent sees the other Mum's getting her kids out of the really big car and thinks ... yes I could do with a bigger car.

Yes, but my point is that they only seem to be hurdles because of our car centric culture, whereas where these things are more common, the hurdles don't exist (or aren't as high).

al78: I'd walk if I had to, yes. Weather is just weather. But we've established I'm not normal for a girl....

Ok, a car and bike aren't exactly the same. But the fact remains that people (male and female) will come up with a hundred and one reasons not to cycle, but accept driving as a norm, even when it can be shown that cycling is faster, cheaper, better for you (and the environment) etc. Whereas in Amsterdam, cycling is normal, and no one thinks of needing special clothes and showers and all that...

 

[marinyork]

2. If your car does break down in the middle of nowhere, you can ring a breakdown company and if you are a lone woman, you will be prioritised. They will either fix your car at the roadside or take you to a garage (possibly take you home, I don't know about that). AFAIK no such service exists for bikes so although you can wheel it home it could be a very long walk if you are unlucky (would you really be happy to walk for an hour in the weather we are having at the moment?).

I'm aware of two breakdown services for bikes if you have a particularly bad mechanical. Furthermore although it's not perfect in theory in quite a few areas you could get the train back with it.

As for three, I think you're exaggerating how quickly it takes to fix things on cars and exaggerating how long it takes for bikes. The perception is Arch's normalcy thing. Some people might dispute point 1 also although I will not here.

 

[al78]

As for three, I think you're exaggerating how quickly it takes to fix things on cars and exaggerating how long it takes for bikes. The perception is Arch's normalcy thing. Some people might dispute point 1 also although I will not here.

Well I am going by my own experiences here. It is extremely rare for me to be without a car for more than a day as a result of a mechanical problem. It is equally rare for me to get my bike back within one day after taking it to the LBS for a repair. As an example, my road bike is currently in to have a wheel relaced; I took it in on Wednesday 3rd February and I was told last Saturday it would be ready this Wednesday (17th). Last summer after an accident I was without my folder for six weeks due to delays in getting spare parts. Waiting a week for a bike repair is the norm here during the summer, the main reason why I decided to learn how to do some of the repairs myself.

 

[summerdays]

Yes, but my point is that they only seem to be hurdles because of our car centric culture

So how do you get rid of the car centric culture? Currently those people don't want to change, they like their car and see the bike as something which requires effort to propel, you get wet when it rains, and in their mind can't carry very much. I think it will be very hard to change attitudes - and I don't think there is the political will-power to do so.

Some of my family were watching that police program last night - and they were talking about cloning car number-plates. They went to look how Sweden does it - very well (only one place makes the plates, they have information about the car on the plate, there is a matching VIN number on both the car and numberplate etc). In Sweden they have 1% uninsured/not taxed drivers in comparison to our 10% (not sure about the figures).

However the reason I brought the Sweden bit was that I was there watching the screen looking at the traffic - it was less dense and frantic than I normally see and wondered if that was the effect of the strict liability laws. I think it would make a difference to cyclists and certainly to the perceived safety of cycling which puts off future cyclists.

 

[ttcycle]

So what you have basically described there is a cultural view, not ones ethnicity per se?

The reason I believe you're discussing culture is because each argument you have given, in addition to the coupling of age and ethnicity would point towards this.

The only thing which makes me doubt my assumption is that you have chosen the difference between men and women which in addition to cultural can be seen as acknowledgement of physical (esp. mental) differences.

It would be unhelpful for me to go on, until you clarify. Are you meaning that ones cultural outlook ought to be considered or is this tending towards the innate?

Chap this is not a exploration into the tabula rasa arguement. Besides whether certain factors that you may consider innate and the emphasis on you does not mean they are fixed in such a simplistic way. Correct me if I am wrong but by ethnicity are you saying that there are no physiological differences that would effect cycling uptake? My stance is there are slight differences physically but this combines with what you would refer to as culture.

Besides, I wasn't under the impression that I was going to enter a debate of an ontological basis.

Can we return to cycle advocacy and back on topic rather than picking at minutae of wording/meaning/semantics as it's not a topic that is inclusive to all on the debate.

 

[chap]

Chap this is not a exploration into the tabula rasa arguement. Besides whether certain factors that you may consider innate and the emphasis on you does not mean they are fixed in such a simplistic way. Correct me if I am wrong but by ethnicity are you saying that there are no physiological differences that would effect cycling uptake? My stance is there are slight differences physically but this combines with what you would refer to as culture.

Besides, I wasn't under the impression that I was going to enter a debate of an ontological basis.

Can we return to cycle advocacy and back on topic rather than picking at minutae of wording/meaning/semantics as it's not a topic that is inclusive to all on the debate.

Sorry, I cannot understand why you object.

If one is to debate a subject, then surely at least the wording ought to be considered - if not the premise. To state that ones ethnicity has an influence on their consideration of cycling is simply absurd.

This is why I asked for clarity, rather than simply mouthing off as you have done in your post.