Why the abuse?

[magnatom]

I don't think it is a private affair, I do think that the approach of becoming a self-appointed guardian of driving morals is completely different. You have appointed yourself as the highlighter of bad driving, and give your 'victims' no right of reply or explanation. You have become a one-man kangaroo court. It's wrong.

I've done no such thing. I challange you to trawl through my posts here, on youtube, on my blog, over the last 3 and a half years and show me where I have suggested any such thing. People assume I think of myself as some sort of guardian of driving morals, but that is your and their assumption and misinterpretation, not my stance. I just show what happens on my commute, and ask that I get a little more respect. In return, I offer respect back. Show me anywhere, where I have said any different.

As for no right of reply! Do you know how the internet works!

 

[Flying_Monkey]

I have some sympathy for both Magnatom and Maggot's views here. On the one hand, I am all for cyclists protecting themselves, but I have also observed that surveillance tends to increase, not act as a remedy for, declining civility. And, whilst I do not any way condone death threats (whether believable or not) or violence of any kind, I can understand why increasing numbers of people have had enough of being filmed everywhere they go. Magnatom may have, and certainly may think he has, no bad motivations, but what does that mean to the people being filmed (and then being displayed online)? It is also the case that you are an easy target for frustration in the way that state CCTV or other fixed cameras are generally not (and they are increasingly protected). I am not sure, in the end whether helmet cams really protect you or incite a reaction. Certainly the posting online is far more provocative than necessary for self-protection. It still isn't 'normal' and I am not sure that I want to live in a society where it is.

But I don't know. It's something I am spending quite a lot of time trying to work out.

 

[hulver]

Normal person + Anonymity + Audience = Total F**kwad

 

[soulful dog]

Of what User76 posted, I think just the idea that some people perhaps feel embarrassed at being filmed doing something wrong, and there's an element of being trapped. People can get very defensive, more so if they think you are deliberately looking to catch them out (which they'll automatically assume because you are filming).

Flying_Monkey's point about people just not being happy about being filmed and it being broadcast online is probably a pretty big factor too.

Let's face it, there's a whole raft of valid reasons for people reacting in differing ways to your videos - good and bad. People dishing out abuse to you though is just sad.

 

[bonj2]

The fact is if you're filmed by magnatom and you do nothing wrong then the film is going to be discarded and deleted, and never watched again by anyone, and therefore the mere fact that you have been filmed does not make any difference whatsoever. Just the same as the way in which loads of mobile phone calls are tapped but 99.999% of the data is completely discarded and analyzed (beyond contribution to generic statistics).
If you drive dangerously near someone, especially someone more vulnerable, then you can fully expect that person to become aggrieved, and highlighting their idiocy to others is imho a perfectly civil way of retributing that aggravation - which is all magnatom is doing. The 'oh but it contributes to an ever-increasing surveillance society' has just become a buzz-word that likes to be rolled out, sorry FM, but it is.
In answer to the op, the reason people become abusive is because they would like to defend their actions but can't think how - either because they are too thick, or there is no real valid defence, or more probably both - it is just neanderthalism coming out when the bad driver gets frustrated that he has been shown up as simply a common or garden bad driver, frustrated because he has lost face because he like most bad drivers like to think they're the best driver in the world.

 

[bonj2]

Of what User76 posted, I think just the idea that some people perhaps feel embarrassed at being filmed doing something wrong, and there's an element of being trapped. People can get very defensive, more so if they think you are deliberately looking to catch them out (which they'll automatically assume because you are filming).

Flying_Monkey's point about people just not being happy about being filmed and it being broadcast online is probably a pretty big factor too.

Let's face it, there's a whole raft of valid reasons for people reacting in differing ways to your videos - good and bad. People dishing out abuse to you though is just sad.

I dont' buy this notion that 'it's difficult to drive 100% perfectly and thus escape magnatom's radar'. He is n't interested in less than 100% perfection, he's only interested in blatant carelessness or dangerousness.Otherwise his videos would be quite boring and no-one would watch them. If you can't drive without serious carelessness or dangerousness, then you shouldn't be driving, whether it's a mistake, impatience or whatever.

 

[MacB]

If you ride with a cam with the intent of using the footage in case of an accident, then I can find no fault. I'm not so sure about the posting up of general footage where the poster feels another road user is at fault. This is subjective and the footage is liable to editing and would rarely provide the overall view. I'm not convinced about the level of good this does. If some of the feedback is accurate then it certainly does plenty of harm in setting some motorists more firmly against cyclists.

I've watched quite a few clips now and some seem to clearly show appalling attitudes from motorists. Some show incidents where I just don't see the problem. Then there's been a few where I think the cyclist posting the footage is wrong in either their interpretation or their reactions.

Taking Mags as a specific, I thought his official close pass video, the one with the taxi driver, was a clear example of criminal fault on the part of the motorist. Though we debated Mags road position etc, nothing ever warrants that sort of driving. Then there was another video where Mags was nearly reversed into by a car. In that one I thought that the potential for trouble was clear and would have hoped to have anticipated that possibility. I don't excuse the poor driving but I felt you could see it coming.

I have to say I share, at least, some of FM's concerns, re the rise of this sort of activity. I have nothing like his understanding, or background, in this field, but something really doesn't sit right with me.

 

[Lurker]

If you ride with a cam with the intent of using the footage in case of an accident, then I can find no fault. I'm not so sure about the posting up of general footage where the poster feels another road user is at fault. This is subjective and the footage is liable to editing and would rarely provide the overall view....

You're right that helmet cam footage is subjective; isn't that (mainly) the point? People who don't cycle often have no conception of what it's like to use the road as a cyclist. Helmet cam footage on youtube's also useful for learning whether as a cyclist or motorist; any progressive driving school/trainer of driving instructors would be making use of it as a training tool.

However, cyclists wouldn't feel the need to use helmet cams, and this debate wouldn't be happening, if:
a) road users obeyed the law and the highway code
the police took an interest in law-breaking on our roads, and in poor road user behaviour generally
c) the police - and criminal justice system generally - focused their energies on law-breaking on roads that has the greatest potential for harm i.e. that carried out by drivers

 

[Flying_Monkey]

The 'oh but it contributes to an ever-increasing surveillance society' has just become a buzz-word that likes to be rolled out, sorry FM, but it is

How and why do you think it has become a 'buzz-word' bonj? I'll tell you why. It is because people like me have been doing research for the last twenty years into exactly this and the media has finally started to take some notice.

It would help sometimes if you took account of more than your superficial reactions to things.

 

[magnatom]

Thanks for your views guys.

I should point out that I have never suggested that everyone else should do what I do and post on youtube. I've posted my reasons for doing it many times, so I won't go over old ground again (that's all we do here isn't it). I do think, however, that the more cyclists that have them, and that it is public knowledge that a lot of cyclists have them, the better.

I do try and be as honest, and as fair as I can. I can understand that people might think I selectively edit my videos to make me look better. I try not to. If I had the time and money etc I would happily post all of my commutes from start to finish (minus a bit near my house) for scrutiny. That way if ever the question of editing came up I could provide all of the footage.

FM I really don't think the camera incites any agression towards me on the street, quite the opposite. I've had many people back down when I pointed it out. I've also tried to be reasonable in posting identifying details. Car registrations are only identifyable to a few, I often (when I remember) try and tell the person on film that I am filming and will publish it, and when someone who has shown that they are the person in the video, asks for it to be removed I have removed it. Of course part of the cameras power is in it's embarassment factor. i.e. who wants to get caught on youtube driving badly (some do! ).

I have actually thought of writting a 'code of conduct' piece on using helmet cameras. Maybe I should get around to it and maybe you could help FM?

As for those who suggest that it is 'boring now, so I should stop'...... I'm not doing doing this for entertainment (although some clips are amusing) so I'm not to bothered if you are bored. Also the viewing figures for my videos suggest otherwise. User76 if you find it so boring, why do you bother watching, reading or replying. The internet is a wonderful place with one or two other web pages that you could visit instead....

 

[soulful dog]

bonj I'm just playing devils advocate a bit to try and give reasons why people might not be happy about magnatom's videos. I've only watched a few of them so don't know how much hassle he gets (and I mean because he's filming not just the normal hassles from the drivers who think they are the only ones who matter on the road), and I still think the biggest reason for the abusive comments posted on youtube is simply that he is publishing the videos online. No matter how good your intentions are, that seems to open you up to being a target for abuse.

Edited to add - jeez did it really take me over seven minutes to type out this post! To add a final comment following magnatom's post, as long as he is happy enough posting his videos and thinks he's doing some good highlighting (and hopefully correcting) poor driving and attitudes towards cyclists, good for him.

 

[Flying_Monkey]

FM I really don't think the camera incites any agression towards me on the street, quite the opposite. I've had many people back down when I pointed it out. I've also tried to be reasonable in posting identifying details. Car registrations are only identifyable to a few, I often (when I remember) try and tell the person on film that I am filming and will publish it, and when someone who has shown that they are the person in the video, asks for it to be removed I have removed it. Of course part of the cameras power is in it's embarassment factor. i.e. who wants to get caught on youtube driving badly (some do! ).

I have actually thought of writting a 'code of conduct' piece on using helmet cameras. Maybe I should get around to it and maybe you could help FM?

It would be an interesting project.

It isn't so much the filming as the posting on Youtube that I think get some people's backs up. I was involved in one of the first video-activist groups in this country - we filmed the police at demonstrations and protests, for the protection of activists - which worked to an extent. But ironically we also found ourselves the target of police monitoring, and the state adopted tactics to counter this - the police officers would remove or cover their numbers, and new laws have now been introduced to allow the police to ban photography and filming. The thing is that you can't just consider what you do in isolation - you are part of both a massive growth in monitoring, which is happening from the global to the personal, and a battle for control of the visual (how things are seen) - and I am not sure what side you are on, or even what side is right. When you only think of this as you, your camera and a few drivers, it all sounds perfectly reasonable. When you start to consider this in the wider context, I am not so sure that it does. If this sounds slightly confused, it is...

There's also quite a few interesting class and power questions here. Cyclists tend to think of themselves as pretty righteous (for various reasons) - and we may well be - but we also tend to be more educated, more middle class, more aware of our rights etc. This as much as anything else annoys people like the guy in the OP, who yes, doesn't seem like a very nice chap, but he is pretty much your average working class Glaswegian protestant Rangers fan, and he probably thinks that you (and I) are middle class self-gratification artists as cyclists anyway, although that's about as far as it goes. But add the the camera, the youtube site and the attitude, and you've pretty much confirmed his opinion and made it worse. Of course it's provocative - whether or not that provocation has a reasoned and reasonable basis.

 

[Bollo]

Wow, a five page helmet cam thread that hasn't descended into angry exchanges, personal insults and dubious poetry. I'll have to raise my game.....

Although I'm cammed up on my commute I don't tend to put videos of 'standard' bad driving (non-contact close passes, exchanges of verbal, sign language etc) on youtube any more. The good news is that there aren't that many to show, a point the maggers makes about his rides but that some fail to hear. Also, I don't have the time, energy or inclination to get into pointless comment debates with some of the crazies that inhabit youtube.

Unfortunately (puffs on French cigarette to give air of lassitude) I've no real faith in the use of cameras as a campaigning tool. Maggers has been there and, much as I wish his efforts could have achieved the desired results, the effect was at best short-lived. We're the whipping boys for many of the ills that affect our roads and, until attitudes change fundamentally in this country, I don't think footage of our poor treatment can make a significant difference. I wish it weren't so, but there you go. BUT - cameras are great evidence and that's why use one.

 

[Crackle]

If you're using a camera a la Bollo, ''in case', it's good: Posting on youtube, it's bad, end of as far as I'm concerned but then I'm not you and when you explain your reasons, I'm often left with the, well it's not something I would do, line.

Surveillance society is bad but then again since the cctv cameras went in those gatherings of two hundred youths have stopped....

It's telling that my kids don't count red cars when we're out driving but how many cameras they've seen.

 

[magnatom]

FM,

I'll admit, I probably don't know enough about the subject, to know which side I am on! Superficially, I have no problem with being monitored in public places, in appropriate databases etc, however, I realise that there is a big assumption in this, and that is that data is appropriately used. Of course there is a possibility for abuse, and often in ways that it might not be obvious. At the moment I can only offer assurances that I have no ulterior motives, and I try to be as transparent and honest as possible. If there was a way of proving that or auditing it I would be happy to do it.

Your an expert in this, and as you point out, you don't have the answers yet, so what chance do the rest of us have! I'm always open to advice in this area from yourself and others.

I know that research has shown cyclists tend to earn more etc, but does Joe Public actually know this? Before I cycled I probably had the opinion that cyclists couldn't afford a car etc, and I get plenty of comments telling me to buy a car etc....