Will Ebikes become a disposable epidemic in the future

[johnnyb47]

Hi,
I've been thinking about buying a ebike lately and today whilst out cycling on my non ebike I started thinking about random things( as you do) and somehow started to think about the average life of an e bike.
If reading the tinterweb is anything to go by, an ebike battery will last somewhere between 3 and 5 years before it starts to lose it's range.
Cheaper bikes may also suffer from displays screen/motor/or general electrical problems.
The simple thing is to buy replacement parts ,but I would imagine a lot of people would just end up binning them..
If you bought a relatively cheap ebike for around £1000 and you use it heavily through all kinds of weather and it gets "knocked about"and the battery starts to play up or the motor ect,your faced with an expensive bill replacing them.You may not even be able to get your hands on the none standardized parts either as they become obsolete.
It could leave you with a heavy paper weight after a few years down the line that's good for nothing.
When I buy something ,I like it to be able to be serviceable for many years to come and to able to get hold of parts easily.
Ordinary non e bikes generally fall into this category.
Ebikes are becoming very popular and the more that are appearing on our streets the more we will see them being disposed of 5 + years down the line when an expensive battery is needed.
Also will the authorities have to get there act together in dealing with the extra influx of dead Ebikes going to the tip with there hazardous batteries..
Does my thinking of this have any valid points or do you think a little different to me,
All the very best,
Johnny

 

[Pat "5mph"]

I think you are right.
After all there are already plenty of ordinary push bikes destinated to landfill because their owners cannot be bothered to repair them, or simply lose interest in riding them.
Bikes that spend years rusting in some shed then being skipped, or ending up at the bottom of some canal.
Not bottom of the range either: plenty of good finds by our members in skips!
Like the phone before the latest must have, an E-Bike can become obsolete or too expensive to repair within a few years of purchase.

 

[johnnyb47]

Year's ago ordinary everyday bikes where very much standardized in that components would fit all.
If you had cheap components you could always easily upgrade to a more expensive item i.e brakes ,derailleurs wheel sets.
A bike could be virtually a bike for life because parts were standardized.
E bikes by there nature all seem to have bespoked parts.Chargers are all different with there connectors to a battery, Display screens have to be specific to the particular bike, bearings and seat post diameters all unique to the make.
Once these bikes go out of production trying to find such items will become either expensive or non existent.
To the person who just uses an e bike for knocking around on I can see these bikes having a relatively short lifespan.

 

[mustang1]

Why do companies want proprietary parts? Control. Why? Profit. Why? Coz that's why companies exist. Why? Capitalism. Why? Coz mines bigger than yours. Why? Coz my other thing ain't that big. Why? Evolution. Why? That's the world we live in and I need to attract the opposite sex. Why? Coz it's being human, well, that's what animals do.

Right, what were we talking about again?

Oh, batteries. Uhm, yeah, see the above. Can be used to explain most things.

 

[Andy in Germany]

This is certainly what we see at work, i anything it's more extreme than the OP describes.

We can only maintain motors from Bosch or Shimano because we have a licence to do so. This means that anyone coming in with a different motor has to go to the manufacturer. In the case of a local company, and there are a surprising number on south Germany, that's not difficult, but that's about it. This means we can't touch the motor, electronics or the computer.

It's worse than that though, because those Cheap Ebikes often come with non-standard parts, and we can't repair them: many a customer has come with a bike they bought for 1000 €, asking us to "fix the brakes" only to be told we can't touch the brakes because we don't know what hydraulic fluid they use, or the brake pads are an unknown shape. Even the gear hanger on one was completely non-standard, and the stand fixing point was different to the norm, and because it was a "cool" shape we couldn't just fit a bolt-on stand.

Even getting a Bosch or Shimano motor doesn't solve the problem because these companies are gradually phasing out update packages for their software, so faults can't be repaired any more.

As the OP says, batteries have a limited life. We can't refurbish used Ebikes because we don't know if the battery will last a year or a week or simply catch fire in 24 hours; new batteries aren't available for that bike, and if the battery caught fire we'd be liable for the damage.

Also, batteries are officially dangerous goods; we can't even transport a defective battery from our main workshop to the city centre workshop, about 3km, because we don't have a dangerous goods transportation licence. Transporting a defective battery can cost as much as the new battery, which has confused many customers because we are about 20 minutes from the main Bosch factory.

We are now an official collection point for old Ebikes, and we have to have a fireproof bin for the batteries. We have a stopgap solution at the moment; an airtight barrel full of particles that will melt and smother the fire from a burning battery, but we are supposed to have a fireproof metal case soon which apparently cost an absolute fortune.

So yes, I think Ebikes will prove to be expensive items with a shorter use life than a lot of people expect, and I suspect the sales will tail off a bit as people realise they have spent 5000€ on something that lasts five years and then needs replacing because the parts cost too much or aren't even available.

 

[SteveH80]

The whole longevity and recycling options for an ebike is an interesting thought and one that often goes through my head when I'm out riding. I suspect ebikes are no worse than any other bike.
Longevity used to be a given for cycles but since more manufacturers have moved to proprietary systems this has started to fail. Ebikes are the same only with more parts that won’t be available as replacement, or if they are are uneconomic to do so.
So that leaves recycling. I expect the batteries and motors can be recycled easily enough, likewise the steel frame, but how and where this happening is another matter.
All the ancillaries that wear out and get broken (chains, cassettes, wheels etc) are like any bike - they go in the scrap metal skip.
The big problem is still carbon fibre - other than landfill there still isn't much you can economically do with the stuff.
Despite cries to the contrary I'm not convinced cycling is a particularly green activity, it's just slightly better than others. Provided you avoid carbon fibre that is.

 

[Mike Ayling]

1,000 Euros a year is not a lot if you are using the ebike for local transport instead of a motor vehicle.
Definitely cheaper.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

I have had 3 ebike overall
first was one I got in 2011 - so pretty early

It was - according to the bloke who advertised it in a local chippie - only about a year old but wasn;t powerful enough for him so he had go a different one

but the battery lasted me a couple of year before it started to only last for one ride
so I got a new one - from a 3rd party and not Powacycle who made the bike
That lasted for ages - until I sold it - although the first battery actually seemed to improve after a while of being kept as a spare

In the time that I had it I also recelled one of them - personally I think the company that sold it had already recelled it and tarted the case up

I had it for year - and it went through basically 3 batteries worth of cells and when I sold it it was still working on both batteries but range was only about 20-30 miles

The folder we have is dead battery wise - lasted about 4 years and the battery died - possibly due to me forgetting to maintain the charge over the winter but I though it was at about 70-80% when I stored it

The one I ride now uses the Bosch drive and battery system and it 7 years old - the range is certainly lower than it was but not massively - probably good to 2 normal ride and a short one - about 50 odd miles - after that you are chancing a ride home with no assist


Which does suggest that the Li battery tech is a consumer item
but then so are things like tyres and tubes - and other bites


but in the time i have had this bike - I have probably gone through several phone batteries - people just seem to think it is normal to replace the battery after a few years and the old one gets chucked - hopefully into recycling but not always
These days people often just get a new phone - which is worse
I notice that a country on the continent (is it France??) is making it compulsory to have a replaceable battery because of this - like it used to be

and power tools are getting to be more and more "cordless" as are many household appliances
so it is a general problem - ebikes are bad becuase they use more cells - but it is a general problem

 

[Mike Ayling]

I have had 3 ebike overall
first was one I got in 2011 - so pretty early

It was - according to the bloke who advertised it in a local chippie - only about a year old but wasn;t powerful enough for him so he had go a different one

but the battery lasted me a couple of year before it started to only last for one ride
so I got a new one - from a 3rd party and not Powacycle who made the bike
That lasted for ages - until I sold it - although the first battery actually seemed to improve after a while of being kept as a spare

In the time that I had it I also recelled one of them - personally I think the company that sold it had already recelled it and tarted the case up

I had it for year - and it went through basically 3 batteries worth of cells and when I sold it it was still working on both batteries but range was only about 20-30 miles

The folder we have is dead battery wise - lasted about 4 years and the battery died - possibly due to me forgetting to maintain the charge over the winter but I though it was at about 70-80% when I stored it

The one I ride now uses the Bosch drive and battery system and it 7 years old - the range is certainly lower than it was but not massively - probably good to 2 normal ride and a short one - about 50 odd miles - after that you are chancing a ride home with no assist


Which does suggest that the Li battery tech is a consumer item
but then so are things like tyres and tubes - and other bites


but in the time i have had this bike - I have probably gone through several phone batteries - people just seem to think it is normal to replace the battery after a few years and the old one gets chucked - hopefully into recycling but not always
These days people often just get a new phone - which is worse
I notice that a country on the continent (is it France??) is making it compulsory to have a replaceable battery because of this - like it used to be

and power tools are getting to be more and more "cordless" as are many household appliances
so it is a general problem - ebikes are bad becuase they use more cells - but it is a general problem

Think about the number of cells in an e car!

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Think about the number of cells in an e car!

Yes - apparently some of them get "repurposed" into storage for homes to store electrons to make use of cheap rates over night and from Solar

but yes - electric cars are bigger problem that is just waiting to jump up and bite us

 

[numbnuts]

I've gone through 3 batterys since 2016 so not too bad.
Two 11ah @ £249 and one 17ah @ £400.

 

[kingrollo]

Hi,
I've been thinking about buying a ebike lately and today whilst out cycling on my non ebike I started thinking about random things( as you do) and somehow started to think about the average life of an e bike.
If reading the tinterweb is anything to go by, an ebike battery will last somewhere between 3 and 5 years before it starts to lose it's range.
Cheaper bikes may also suffer from displays screen/motor/or general electrical problems.
The simple thing is to buy replacement parts ,but I would imagine a lot of people would just end up binning them..
If you bought a relatively cheap ebike for around £1000 and you use it heavily through all kinds of weather and it gets "knocked about"and the battery starts to play up or the motor ect,your faced with an expensive bill replacing them.You may not even be able to get your hands on the none standardized parts either as they become obsolete.
It could leave you with a heavy paper weight after a few years down the line that's good for nothing.
When I buy something ,I like it to be able to be serviceable for many years to come and to able to get hold of parts easily.
Ordinary non e bikes generally fall into this category.
Ebikes are becoming very popular and the more that are appearing on our streets the more we will see them being disposed of 5 + years down the line when an expensive battery is needed.
Also will the authorities have to get there act together in dealing with the extra influx of dead Ebikes going to the tip with there hazardous batteries..
Does my thinking of this have any valid points or do you think a little different to me,
All the very best,
Johnny

Well yes you are correct.

However how many non e bikes purchased today will still be in active use 5 years from today ?
I'm thinking particularly about budget bikes - much frowned upon (and rightly so in some cases) however they probably make up a decent % of new bike sales and are generally unusable after a year or two at the most.

 

[Dogtrousers]

Year's ago ordinary everyday bikes where very much standardized in that components would fit all.
If you had cheap components you could always easily upgrade to a more expensive item i.e brakes ,derailleurs wheel sets.
A bike could be virtually a bike for life because parts were standardized..

Is that not still true? I ride a "Trigger's Broom" bike and have a variety of components to choose from whenever I fancy giving it a facelift. It may not be quite as true as it once was, and maybe fancy derailleur hangers may become unobtainable, and possibly some things in the world of disc brakes (I know nothing about them), but broadly speaking it's true. I'm not planning on buying a new bike until/unless my bike gets nicked or gets crash damaged, or my legs give out and I have to consider an e-bike.

People may not keep bikes running as much as they did in the past, but that's not due to lack of standardisation of components. It's due to lack of desire and availability of cheap alternatives.

But back to the depressing theme of the thread I fear that yes, e-bikes, especially at the cheaper end of the market, are just hazardous landfill in waiting.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

When I moved here I took my first ebike to the LBS and he was very interested in it
He had heard of them and read about them but nor seen many

After a couple of simple replacement bits that went wrong - things like tyre and the like

I asked him to give it a good going over and see what he thought of it

When I went back he reckoned that there were so many bits that were worn out but were non standard that it was not really worth trying to tart it up
Of course, this is in a bike shop full of new ebikes - so - possible vested interest??

but anyway it did have weird size wheels and some other bits were unusual to allow for the ebike system

so I sold it and went back and bought a new Raleigh Array from him

 

[Andy in Germany]

1,000 Euros a year is not a lot if you are using the ebike for local transport instead of a motor vehicle.
Definitely cheaper.

True. I guess that's because I'm coming from the opposite direction: my most expensive work bike cost 2300 € in 2009, so even factoring in repairs and parts I'm probably under 150 € per year.

Really, that shows how expensive car ownership is, something which is thankfully irrelevant to me.