Zwift Chat

[BurningLegs]

Would you be able to make a slight break before the leg sapper and gradually fall through the chasing pack, hopefully maintaining a high position over the crest?

From a small group, maybe (but unlikely). In a group of anything over six I’d say no chance, unfortunately. 🙂

 

[Joffey]

Did my first Zwift race since the last ZRL race tonight.

ZP had me down as a D so entered as one but it was a mass start event so didn’t think it would matter either way.

I had forgot how tough racing is! It was a fast start, got in with a decent group Bs and Cs and kept up until 4 miles to go when I got dropped and left it too long to chase back on.

What I have learned is I’ve put 5kg on and my power has dropped so my average power is around 2.8w/kg so that pops me firmly in the middle of C.

Training and weight loss starts today!

EDIT - If I'd entered Cat C I would have come 3rd

 

[bobinski]

Seems there are a lot of fat CC f*ckers here now 😁 me included 😢

 

[Joffey]

Seems there are a lot of fat CC f*ckers here now 😁 me included 😢

Im not sure how I managed to pile it on over summer. There is no hope for me in winter

 

[berty bassett]

as you know , i had a hissy git and left zwift as i couldnt race with the ones i wanted to because of the ranking system
i have just been reading how rgt ranks races and its a shame that zwift doesnt do the same
you all start with a silver ranking with points , if you beat people with more points than you , you get more points - if you beat people who have less points then there is a good chance of losing points
solves the sandbagging
points get you promoted - no points demoted

The ranking system used on RGTDB is built on a modified version of the Elo ranking system. The concept is simple. Ranked races offer the chance to gain or lose rank based a riders results vs others. The higher the difference in rank, the more change is possible. Over time, a rank is calculated that signifies the chance of winning against others.

In this system, sandbagging (or racing against lower ranked riders), is risky. At best, a win yeilds almost no rank gain. Losing transfers a large amount of rank to the winning riders.
just saying

 

[Joffey]

as you know , i had a hissy git and left zwift as i couldnt race with the ones i wanted to because of the ranking system
i have just been reading how rgt ranks races and its a shame that zwift doesnt do the same
you all start with a silver ranking with points , if you beat people with more points than you , you get more points - if you beat people who have less points then there is a good chance of losing points
solves the sandbagging
points get you promoted - no points demoted

The ranking system used on RGTDB is built on a modified version of the Elo ranking system. The concept is simple. Ranked races offer the chance to gain or lose rank based a riders results vs others. The higher the difference in rank, the more change is possible. Over time, a rank is calculated that signifies the chance of winning against others.

In this system, sandbagging (or racing against lower ranked riders), is risky. At best, a win yeilds almost no rank gain. Losing transfers a large amount of rank to the winning riders.
just saying

So you could just do a few races against people much better than you, get a lower points total, then whoop a load of racers with a similar ranking?

 

[kipster]

So you could just do a few races against people much better than you, get a lower points total, then whoop a load of racers with a similar ranking?

You are unlikely to lose points against better ranked riders beating you as they are expected to beat you based on the ranking system. You can gain points by beating them or others that are similar ranking to you.

As it's built over time if you whoop a load of similarity ranked riders you'll gain points over them so if you continue to race them and beat them you'll no longer gain points as you're expected to beat them. The risk is you'll lose points if they start beating you.

 

[Joffey]

You are unlikely to lose points against better ranked riders beating you as they are expected to beat you based on the ranking system. You can gain points by beating them or others that are similar ranking to you.

As it's built over time if you whoop a load of similarity ranked riders you'll gain points over them so if you continue to race them and beat them you'll no longer gain points as you're expected to beat them. The risk is you'll lose points if they start beating you.

I get you. Sounds a bit convoluted but I'd imagine it makes it a lot simpler for racers (and fairer).

 

[mjd1988]

as you know , i had a hissy git and left zwift as i couldnt race with the ones i wanted to because of the ranking system
i have just been reading how rgt ranks races and its a shame that zwift doesnt do the same
you all start with a silver ranking with points , if you beat people with more points than you , you get more points - if you beat people who have less points then there is a good chance of losing points
solves the sandbagging
points get you promoted - no points demoted

The ranking system used on RGTDB is built on a modified version of the Elo ranking system. The concept is simple. Ranked races offer the chance to gain or lose rank based a riders results vs others. The higher the difference in rank, the more change is possible. Over time, a rank is calculated that signifies the chance of winning against others.

In this system, sandbagging (or racing against lower ranked riders), is risky. At best, a win yeilds almost no rank gain. Losing transfers a large amount of rank to the winning riders.
just saying

Interesting. I'm sure lots of people won't care if they lose rank in order to get easy races though but sounds more effort to game the system anyway. I do like RGT

 

[Norry1]

This is probably similar to the system Zwift uses to give you Race Ranking Points. However, Zwift does not use that information to inform your Category (unless this has changed in the time I've not been on).

 

[<Tommy>]

It sounds better than the zwift system. I still think unless there’s a way of making sure people put in their actual weights then it’s all kind of irrelevant though.

I think people get wound up by cat boundary’s and sand bagging because it’s kind of obvious some of the time when it’s happening, and it feels like they’re rubbing your face in it. But in reality unless you know someone personally there’s no way of knowing what the complete truth of their set up is.

That’s not necessarily a negative I don’t think. Just the way I personally make peace with it.

 

[Aleman]

The ranking system used on RGTDB is built on a modified version of the Elo ranking system. The concept is simple. Ranked races offer the chance to gain or lose rank based a riders results vs others. The higher the difference in rank, the more change is possible. Over time, a rank is calculated that signifies the chance of winning against others.

This is what quite a few people on the Zwift forum for the "Autocat" discussion were saying. We don't actually "need" a new category/ranking system ... apart from getting away from one that is W/Kg based! The Zwift power Race Ranking would work fine if it included automatic promotion / relegation. couple that with the inability to "Race Down" Categories, but allow "Racing Up" and that would fix the vast majority of issues.

The new Autocat system does not fix the underlying issues of putting people in the right category, although it prevents racing down (Unless you are an A+ rider autocatted to C5 ... That was a predictable result ), it's the auto promotion and demotion that's really required. I questioned my C4 placement with WTRL this week when the riders that beat me in C5 were still in C5, and Steven from Race Control Said

It’s not possible to compare 1 rider against another as all the data columns provided by the riders are taken into account to determine the class/category. The algorithm also changes depending on the type of course.

I thought that was the whole point of the Autocat system??

It sounds better than the zwift system.

I think people get wound up by cat boundary’s and sand bagging

When sand bagging is blatantly obvious (Cats C and D mostly ... or perhaps it more obvious in those cats) then perhaps we are right to be annoyed. I did an Innsbruck (KOM after party) race where people rode away from the rest of the group, especially up the KOM ... and when descending the Reverse KOM I was wondering why they were stationary at the side of the road as I passed them ... only for them to follow on and ride my wheel to the finish, where they shot off at 12+W/Kg ... Mechanical ?? Or Sandbagging?? Difficult to say, but when it was a group of riders most of whom were C almost B, I think I know what was going on.

Anyone looking at my C4 Result this week (and my Bologna race) and comparing it to previous Zwift Classics races might very well accuse me of sand bagging in the earlier races. Not so, I was blowing out my arse just to iTT them and not come dead last. Bologna suited my metabolic peculiarities pretty perfectly , London, the rest of the riders were playing games saving thier effort for the sprints. I played them on the last lap, but putting in an effort to get a gap, and stretch it with a high threshold effort for the whole 7 minutes of the final lap. Had it been the usual fast start, and sprints up the climb, I would have been iTT'ing again.

I'm not a racer if I'm honest (although I am highly competitive ) so my result doesn't really bother me that much, having a good, hard 45-60 minute effort at race speed (usually threshold + ) is much better for me than some sort of High Intensity workout. I then spend the rest of the week bimbling about in Zone 2. I started this approach during ZRL Series 3 and I think, from recent improvements in FTP and 20Min power, it's having a good effect. Gradual improvement is all I seek, or at least minimise the performance losses .

 

[berty bassett]

So you could just do a few races against people much better than you, get a lower points total, then whoop a load of racers with a similar ranking?

Yes and get called out for it as well when people go over your results plus you wouldn’t get all the points back that you lost so the cost of winning one race isn’t really worth it

 

[bobinski]

I'm not a racer if I'm honest (although I am highly competitive ) so my result doesn't really bother me that much, having a good, hard 45-60 minute effort at race speed (usually threshold + ) is much better for me than some sort of High Intensity workout. I then spend the rest of the week bimbling about in Zone 2. I started this approach during ZRL Series 3 and I think, from recent improvements in FTP and 20Min power, it's having a good effect. Gradual improvement is all I seek, or at least minimise the performance losses .

That pretty much sums up my approach though the evidence suggests just one HIT , when rested, to supplement the threshold effort may see even bigger gains and an even more competitive Aleman😁

 

[<Tommy>]

This is what quite a few people on the Zwift forum for the "Autocat" discussion were saying. We don't actually "need" a new category/ranking system ... apart from getting away from one that is W/Kg based! The Zwift power Race Ranking would work fine if it included automatic promotion / relegation. couple that with the inability to "Race Down" Categories, but allow "Racing Up" and that would fix the vast majority of issues.

The new Autocat system does not fix the underlying issues of putting people in the right category, although it prevents racing down (Unless you are an A+ rider autocatted to C5 ... That was a predictable result ), it's the auto promotion and demotion that's really required. I questioned my C4 placement with WTRL this week when the riders that beat me in C5 were still in C5, and Steven from Race Control Said



I thought that was the whole point of the Autocat system??





When sand bagging is blatantly obvious (Cats C and D mostly ... or perhaps it more obvious in those cats) then perhaps we are right to be annoyed. I did an Innsbruck (KOM after party) race where people rode away from the rest of the group, especially up the KOM ... and when descending the Reverse KOM I was wondering why they were stationary at the side of the road as I passed them ... only for them to follow on and ride my wheel to the finish, where they shot off at 12+W/Kg ... Mechanical ?? Or Sandbagging?? Difficult to say, but when it was a group of riders most of whom were C almost B, I think I know what was going on.

Anyone looking at my C4 Result this week (and my Bologna race) and comparing it to previous Zwift Classics races might very well accuse me of sand bagging in the earlier races. Not so, I was blowing out my arse just to iTT them and not come dead last. Bologna suited my metabolic peculiarities pretty perfectly , London, the rest of the riders were playing games saving thier effort for the sprints. I played them on the last lap, but putting in an effort to get a gap, and stretch it with a high threshold effort for the whole 7 minutes of the final lap. Had it been the usual fast start, and sprints up the climb, I would have been iTT'ing again.

I'm not a racer if I'm honest (although I am highly competitive ) so my result doesn't really bother me that much, having a good, hard 45-60 minute effort at race speed (usually threshold + ) is much better for me than some sort of High Intensity workout. I then spend the rest of the week bimbling about in Zone 2. I started this approach during ZRL Series 3 and I think, from recent improvements in FTP and 20Min power, it's having a good effect. Gradual improvement is all I seek, or at least minimise the performance losses .

Aleman like I said, when it is blatantly obvious it feels like they’re rubbing your race in it. But that wasn’t really my point. My point was that, and this is just what I’ve found helpful… is that it’s better to try and make peace with people’s cheating.
You have no idea who you’re racing against in reality.

I’ve never met the majority of you guys let alone the wider zwift racing community in the real world. Having the big argument when I caught milzy weight doping a couple of years back taught me a big lesson. Now I just treat it like a big computer game. People cheating is anyway on a game is completely tragic. What more is there to say!