Petition "To introduce a permanent, minimum passing distance

[Origamist]

I think what's needed is a neutral witness. A sufficiently qualified person who looks at all the available evidence and describes to the court exactly what a 'careful and competent' motorist should have done, so the jury has a yardstick to compare against.

I've signed and shared the petition.

That's a nice idea, but it doesn't fit well with our current adversarial judicial system (expert witnesses on both sides) and it's hard to imagine that the concept of a "neutral witness" would even be considered for motoring offences.

 

[Origamist]

I think you misunderstand the role of expert witnesses. Their responsibility is not to the party instructing them - but to the court. In fact, in many civil and criminal cases you will now find expert witnesses instructed on a join basis, either voluntarily or by order of the court.

Traffic police officers are supposed to be expert witnesses... but we have seen that some have an innate bias that doesn't get challenged or they stray into areas outside their expertise (e.g. the efficacy of helmets).

Yes, I should have been clearer in my parentheses: expert witness testimony is used, exploited, challenged and contradicted by both the prosecution and defence.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

Found elsewhere on t'internet:



I'd like that as a car sticker.

GC

 

[Milkfloat]

I would replace the word 'selfish' with 'dangerous'

 

[glasgowcyclist]

I would replace the word 'selfish' with 'dangerous'

I'd settle for either with the addition of daffodil.

GC

 

[marknotgeorge]

I think you misunderstand the role of expert witnesses. Their responsibility is not to the party instructing them - but to the court. In fact, in many civil and criminal cases you will now find expert witnesses instructed on a join basis, either voluntarily or by order of the court.

Traffic police officers are supposed to be expert witnesses... but we have seen that some have an innate bias that doesn't get challenged or they stray into areas outside their expertise (e.g. the efficacy of helmets).

I would say that serving traffic police officers cannot be neutral witnesses, in this definition of neutral witness. They are officers of the Crown, and as Crown does the vast majority of the prosecuting, there's an automatic bias there.

 

[marknotgeorge]

You may think that but the law doesn't. Expert witnesses are not necessarily 'neutral' witnesses - their overriding obligation is to provide their opinion based on the facts that are available but that doesn't mean that they are neutral.

But my neutral witness is a subtly different thing from the legal expert witness. They're appointed by the court (not the defence or prosecution or both), and their purpose is to assist the jury in reaching a verdict, not to assist the legal counsel in making their case.

 

[marknotgeorge]

What you're describing is an expert witness. Although they may be appointed by one of the parties (or these days it is common for a joint expert to be instructed) their obligation is to assist the court (whether this be a jury or a judge) in reaching a verdict - it is not to help counsel in making their case.



I should, for balance and transparency, point out that I have appeared as an expert witness on a number of occasions in both criminal and civil cases.

I understand what you're saying, although I would prefer the witness to be nothing to do with either side.

 

[Fnaar]

http://road.cc/content/news/188516-...distance-when-overtaking-cyclists-nears-10000

 

[Milkfloat]

And linked from road.cc is this column, which I think I can pick a few holes in to say the least.

 

[Milkfloat]

Who is Bez? Sounds like some CTC hack to me, who has conflated all sorts of junk to try and make an argument against the motion.

With was written, I figured it was the 'dancer' from the Happy Mondays

 

[Hacienda71]

Now over 10000 signatures.

 

[mjr]

Who is Bez? Sounds like some CTC hack to me, who has conflated all sorts of junk to try and make an argument against the motion.

A cycling columnist. IIRC he's a member of CUK (the organisation formerly known as CTC) but not particularly close to them. A discussion of his views begins at http://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?p=1000874#p1000874

 

[mjr]

There are minimum passing distance in other jurisdictions which are enforced - including by bike mounted tech for measuring the distance of an overtaking vehicle.

Can you find much evidence on the effects, though? Most countries seem as crap at England at measuring the effects of their interventions. ☹

 

[classic33]

Can you find much evidence on the effects, though? Most countries seem as crap at England at measuring the effects of their interventions. ☹

There's one force using a handlebar mounted device(Boston, USA?) which has had some luck in catching close passers.