20 MPH Neighbourhood Resources

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

I wish you luck selling dutch-named traffic schemes to a UK motorist in 2021 ...

I'm not fussed about the name, you can call them anything you like, ''conspiracy alley zone'', ''don't kill the neighbors son lane etc.'' just a few suggestions, but it's really about the idea rather than the name.

 

[lazybloke]

I like that idea, if they start in 10 years time which is how long it will take manufactures to get in line, then 15 years after that before I would be looking to buy a vehicle with one fitted, I will have either given up driving or will be dead so it doesn't affect me.

Although in the event of social unrest the US military will switch off GPS, what would then happen to all the cars, would they fail to move until GPS signal has been received. Taking it further if you stopped in a tunnel would you be able to get going again without signal sync?

If events ever require GPS to be switched off, I don't think speed limits will be top of my list of concerns.


Wait, no more Strava segments. Noooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[snorri]

But within estates i thing you need an different approach, make all those connecting roads 20mph and all those little roads within estates some equivalent off the dutch term/traffic law ''woonerf''' which means cars only may drive at pedestrian speed(which is 15km/h) and pedestrians may walk anywhere on the road. (this was introduced i believe somewhere in the 80'' to encourage children playing outside and enhance social contacts etc.)

Yes, I totally agree with the concept and I was one of the 48% who voted in the hope that it and similar tried and tested schemes might be transferred from mainland Europe on to UK soil. Others had different ideas which we still wait to see unfold, although it's not at all promising so far.

 

[mjr]

Is 20mph i good idea? In general yes it is because most accidents happen at an lower speeds i havent personally tested it but i reckon a car hurts less at 20mph then at 30mph.

I think the casualty data bears that out. We used to have quite graphic adverts to persuade people not to do 40+ in 30mph zones like:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeUX6LABCEA

and not to do 35 in a 30 zone:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDpOAXfangI


But I've not seen anything similar for 20mph. Thanks to Cameron's localism closing most of the national organisations, road safety has been left to local government who have put out pretty so-so stuff like this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW_fyuybDYw

But i think the most important thing i getting people to understand the reasoning behind a speed restriction whether it is 50, 30, 20, or even slower.

Will that really help? Originally, speed restrictions were introduced to stop vehicles damaging the roads on bends.

And also consistency if we drive to a a town a bit further there are at least 3 places where you may drive 70mph for barely 200ft after which it becomes 50mph.

That's already against policy and guidance (minimum distance between changes should be half a mile) but some councils just won't obey guidance. Sadly, I think it's going to take a law change to make it happen.

But within estates i thing you need an different approach, make all those connecting roads 20mph and all those little roads within estates some equivalent off the dutch term/traffic law ''woonerf''' which means cars only may drive at pedestrian speed(which is 15km/h) and pedestrians may walk anywhere on the road.

We have an equivalent, called "Home Zones". They do not seem to work in the UK because neither developers nor councils will spend the thousands to prohibit flyparking with double-yellow lines and residents usually campaign against permit-controlled parking, so the number of cars often seems to be about double the number of parking spaces, so drivers park all over what would have been walkways or cycleways in a traditional layout and then almost no-one walks because they don't feel safe stepping out from between parked cars so often and competing with drivers to walk along the minimal narrow "roadways" left free from parked cars.

I feel there has been more success with Low Traffic Neighbourhoods and estates like Goldsmith Street in Norwich, where cars have simply been excluded from the central areas in a modern sort of Anglo-Dutch version of the US Radburn estate design which also did not really work in the UK, as the parking lots became vandalism magnets. Of course, Goldsmith Street is council-housing and mid-city, so probably lower car ownership than some areas and I think the council made it permit-parking before residents arrived.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-dOtBk8gDA

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

I think the casualty data bears that out. We used to have quite graphic adverts to persuade people not to do 40+ in 30mph zones like:




Will that really help? Originally, speed restrictions were introduced to stop vehicles damaging the roads on bends.

Yeah they still haven them in the Netherlands, in the Netherlands they are made by a charity which in it's turn receives government funding, but in case of a goverment cut they can just appeal to the public.
Especially when television was still a thing there commercials made a huge impact because they where the conversation on the workfloor, for example this one:

View: https://youtu.be/qSdb14V26io
if you talk to dutch people about this kind of commercial, that one is going to be high in rankings.
Well no limit or rule is going to work if it isn't enforced see for example the amount of cycles without any light if it's dark. However if the police start enforcing it does have a knock-on effect and again if the government takes an successful awareness campaign people might start seeing the use, of it.
Edit: text says Children play please keep that in mind, sorry for the crappy quality it's from the 80'' so probably converted quite a few times before it made it to youtube

That's already against policy and guidance (minimum distance between changes should be half a mile) but some councils just won't obey guidance. Sadly, I think it's going to take a law change to make it happen.

Yeah it could be i'm just surrounded by law/guidance/policy ignoring councils/county councils etc. or the system as a whole is just not working.

We have an equivalent, called "Home Zones". They do not seem to work in the UK because neither developers nor councils will spend the thousands to prohibit flyparking with double-yellow lines and residents usually campaign against permit-controlled parking, so the number of cars often seems to be about double the number of parking spaces, so drivers park all over what would have been walkways or cycleways in a traditional layout and then almost no-one walks because they don't feel safe stepping out from between parked cars so often and competing with drivers to walk along the minimal narrow "roadways" left free from parked cars.

Yeah they do that here too a new development with 1500 houses and 10 parking spaces because they will fund a car share thingy and make cycle spaces, that's not how it works. It will only lead to more frustration and chaos.
But those yellow lines to be honest are a nightmare, i never seen something like it in any of the three countries i lived in.

I feel there has been more success with Low Traffic Neighbourhoods and estates like Goldsmith Street in Norwich, where cars have simply been excluded from the central areas in a modern sort of Anglo-Dutch version of the US Radburn estate design which also did not really work in the UK, as the parking lots became vandalism magnets. Of course, Goldsmith Street is council-housing and mid-city, so probably lower car ownership than some areas and I think the council made it permit-parking before residents arrived.

those area's behind the houses are nice, but then you look a bit further and there is still tarmac and a big difference between to road and the pedestrian path. One of the core things of a woonerf is that those borders do not exist(or at the very least are level with the road) the idea is that the cars are the special vehicles so they have to adjust to the circumstances instead of the other way around. A other thing is that this approach makes it easier to get around things in a pushchair for example. on this like you can see a few pictures http://www.woonerfgoed.nl/bas/Achtergrond.html (text is not that interesting some kind of woonerf-club of some kind)
Vandalism has many reasons but i don't think the way a street is arranged changes much.

A other thing i learned especially from the uk is that the devil is in the details, so is ''affordable housing'' something else as ''social housing'' yet if you see the Major/politician/mp talk a lot of nonsense apperently when it comes to ''social housing targets'' affordable housing is social housing too.
With that in mind i see ''home zones'' and ''low traffic zones'' are these one and the same? and also what's the legal position, because that is a other thing, the dutch version is not only a certain road layout it is actually defined in law. (which also means you can get a fine if you use it as a shortcut as you only may drive their to get to your home or destination. )

 

[sheddy]

UN Road Safety in May
https://www.unroadsafetyweek.org/en/home?