Keith Oates
Janner
- Location
- Penarth, Wales
The idea of making 20mph zones is good IMO but will/can it be enforced, I think not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
20 mph urban limits coming.
- Thread starter spindrift
- Start date
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spindrift said:
Haha, what a joke. I live in Norwich and this is ridiculous there is no need for a blanket 20mph theres already 20mph around every school in Norwich.
So from now on people wont be watching the road, they'll be fixed on their speedos watching the inaccurate needle at that speed fluctuate madly.
Increased CO2 emmisions, so we wont run over the kids, we'll just slowly choke them to death.
What the hell is this country coming too.
Dont get me wrong I aint a speed freak and want safer roads but imposing a 20mph blanket just isnt the answer. Teaching people/kids not to run into the roads, teaching cyclists to obbey the highway code (I cycle to work but damn it pisses me off when I see cyclists go straight through red lights/hop onto the pavement to beat a light) and so on.
Oh and teach mothers to friggin look after their children, far too often do I see kids running ahead crossing roads themselves or the mothers crossing over and not watching their kid behind them crossing on their own, the kid of course doesnt look at the cars they just see mummy on the other side and run towards her.
It aint about keeping a steady speed, thats not a problem for myself (is for the missus though
) its about the fact that the speedo just isnt accurate at a lower speed on most vehicles.A steady speed is agreed better emmisions wise, but not when your running the car in at the most 3rd gear at higher revs than if you were doing 30mph and being able to select 4th gear.
I couldnt say how often I see it (dont record it!) but when the schools start/finish I see it all to often, expecting cars to stop for them.
Briggo said:
Utter crap.
If you cannot control the speed of your vehicle without staring at the speedo, you should reconsider whether you are mentally equipped to drive.
Your responses highlight you as a petrolhead troll. You don't ride at all.
Kids should be able to run across the roads that they and their friend live on.
It's only in he past 40 years that the out of control selfishness of people who decide to encase themselves in steel to go anywhere among their so-dangerous fellow humans has been allowed to hold sway.
Roads are just the spaces between houses. They are not specific freeways for fast, heavy vehicles (and if you had any appreciation, you would understand that 30 is fast!).
tdr1nka
Taking the biscuit
- Location
- SE London, Bandit Country
Briggo said:
This might just have a little something to do with pedestrians actually having right of way and nothing to do with deliberately inconveniencing impatient and careless car drivers.
I sense a childless petrolhead troll in our midst too
.
Amanda P
Legendary Member
- Location
- York. Well, York-ish...
Now that the troll's gone, back to sensible debate (rather than just refuting trolls' fallacious arguments)...
Seems to me that what's needed isn't jsut new legislation, or even just better enforcement.
What we need is more sensible punishments when you're caught speeding.
A speeding ticket gets you three points and a £60 fine. It's a slap on the wrist - unless you're stupid enough to speed (and get caught doing it, which, let's face it, is actually quite unlikely) often, the points are nothing. And £60? The cost of a tank of fuel these days. If you can afford to run a car, £60 isn't going to hurt you much.
Instead, I'd impose short-term bans. For minor offences, banned for a week. During that week, a driver might not be able to get to work, to social events, to the pub, take his kids swimming or whatever. That'd hurt. He might even have to use a bike instead. It might make him think a bit harder about not speeding in future.
Bans are widely flouted at the moment it's true. So if you were caught driving while banned, you'd lose your license for a long time if not for ever. A few high-profile cases of footballers, mps and the like recieving long bans for driving while short-term banned might make the point. Seizing and impounding cars during the period of the ban might help, but'd be problematic.
At the moment, road safety is treated like a game on both sides. Drivers feel that speeding, tailgating etc are pretend crimes, and this belief is re-inforced by trivial monopoly money fines if they're caught.
That "it's all a game" attitude must change.
Seems to me that what's needed isn't jsut new legislation, or even just better enforcement.
What we need is more sensible punishments when you're caught speeding.
A speeding ticket gets you three points and a £60 fine. It's a slap on the wrist - unless you're stupid enough to speed (and get caught doing it, which, let's face it, is actually quite unlikely) often, the points are nothing. And £60? The cost of a tank of fuel these days. If you can afford to run a car, £60 isn't going to hurt you much.
Instead, I'd impose short-term bans. For minor offences, banned for a week. During that week, a driver might not be able to get to work, to social events, to the pub, take his kids swimming or whatever. That'd hurt. He might even have to use a bike instead. It might make him think a bit harder about not speeding in future.
Bans are widely flouted at the moment it's true. So if you were caught driving while banned, you'd lose your license for a long time if not for ever. A few high-profile cases of footballers, mps and the like recieving long bans for driving while short-term banned might make the point. Seizing and impounding cars during the period of the ban might help, but'd be problematic.
At the moment, road safety is treated like a game on both sides. Drivers feel that speeding, tailgating etc are pretend crimes, and this belief is re-inforced by trivial monopoly money fines if they're caught.
That "it's all a game" attitude must change.
Night Train
Maker of Things
- Location
- Greater Manchester
I'm not a petrol head but I do drive and I do have a lot of experience of driving. 20 mph is not an easy speed to maintain. 15-20mph is easy but 20mph is not. The little undulations in the road, the speed humps, the pot holes etc. all conspire to vary the vehicle's speed and at lower speeds the effect is greater. Also tiny movements in the driver's foot would effect engine power and a variation of 10bhp or so at low speeds has a greater effect then at higher speeds, potholes have this effect on the drivers foot as the vehicle bounces about.
So I would say it is very difficult to maintain 20mph on urban roads, unless they are smooth. It could probably vary by as much as 2-3mph either way momentarily.
So clearly the solution is to remember that the speed limit is the maximum legal speed. Driving at a varying 0-20mph would be fine depending on conditions. The thing that will stump some drivers is that they need to be good drivers to know when and where to vary their speed.
It is down to hazard perception and awareness, something that is taught a little in modern driving tuition but not retrospectively to established drivers. Back to my wish for regular retesting of all road users again.
So I would say it is very difficult to maintain 20mph on urban roads, unless they are smooth. It could probably vary by as much as 2-3mph either way momentarily.
So clearly the solution is to remember that the speed limit is the maximum legal speed. Driving at a varying 0-20mph would be fine depending on conditions. The thing that will stump some drivers is that they need to be good drivers to know when and where to vary their speed.
It is down to hazard perception and awareness, something that is taught a little in modern driving tuition but not retrospectively to established drivers. Back to my wish for regular retesting of all road users again.
Night Train
Maker of Things
- Location
- Greater Manchester
DP
Night Train
Maker of Things
- Location
- Greater Manchester
I'd agree with this. Break the rules and lose the right to use a vehicle for a short period and applied to all road users across the board, no exceptions. A vehicle and licence could be impounded and then returned at the end of the sentence and any breach of the ban would result in the vehicle being disposed of. Harsh but would be more effective then fines.Uncle Phil said:
I would also say the spirit of the law needs to be upheld so 'technicalities' would give a slapped wrist to the Council/officer or Police/officer recording the offence but the offence would still stand.
I went through a camera in a 40mph zone at 39mph and I saw in the distance a 30 sign so I began to slow after the camera. I went through the 30 zone at less then 30mph. I then got a ticket for speeding. I went back to check and found that just before the camera was a 30 sign partly obscured by trees. I could have got off but I accepted the fine and points as I should have noticed that the first 30 sign I could see in the distance was a small repeater sign and not the larger start of speed limit sign. My mistake and I accepted the spirit of the law rather then trying to get off on a technicality. I value my honour and integrity far more then my ability to cheat.
Uhmmm... 3 post ment, but anyway...
s'the difference?
Drive at 15-20 then. Nobody will die because you're going "too slowly".
I agree that speeding punishments are pissed and whined about just to keep the government prone and grovelling. But they protest too much. Basically governments have all done ****-all about road safety.
And if they ever did hold people to account for their actions, the hissy fits would be completely out of control. There would probably be riots of everyone who broke the speed limit or used a mobile phone while driving actually got punished.
s'the difference?
Drive at 15-20 then. Nobody will die because you're going "too slowly".
I agree that speeding punishments are pissed and whined about just to keep the government prone and grovelling. But they protest too much. Basically governments have all done ****-all about road safety.
And if they ever did hold people to account for their actions, the hissy fits would be completely out of control. There would probably be riots of everyone who broke the speed limit or used a mobile phone while driving actually got punished.
CopperBrompton
Bicycle: a means of transport between cake-stops
- Location
- London
The key problem is that we've lost sight of the objective, and are instead just measuring something that is easy to measure but often not reflective of road safety.Uncle Phil said:
30mph up a narrow residential street on a sunny Sunday with kids everywhere is perfectly legal, but clearly not safe. 90mph on the 4-lane stretch of the M6 through Cumbria at 2am is perfect safe, but clearly not legal. The dangerous driver will be safe from the attentions of the law while the safe driver (who earlier did 10mph past the kids) won't be.
That's why it gets viewed as a game.
Until we lose this stupid obsession with numbers painted on tin plates, enforced by machines, and instead focus on the quality of driving, judged by police officers, nothing much is going to change.
Ben
