A commute I did yesterday

[bonj2]

Gosh. Two whole years? No wonder you're an expert.

well not in my whole life, just recently.

 

[magnatom]

Bonj,

In a quick look back at your video I found three times you filter on the left 3.55, 4.29 and 5.49 (although the car started moving so you aborted).
In none of these did you filter in a different lane. Filtering down the left approaching lights/junctions is unsafe because of the possibility of left turning vehicles and opening doors. I have witnessed near misses myself.

Where have I mentioned cyclecraft in this thread? Yes I have read cyclecraft (I certainly don't have time to read it every day!!). It's is a guide to cycling and doesn't cover every eventuality. However, it's guiding principles are sound and I would suggest you have read.

Have a look here http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/cv.html

Do you reckon you have more experience and expertise than Mr Franklin? What's your cycling CV?

I have critiqued your cycling because you have posted a video. That's the way it works. I get plenty of critique on mine. That's to be expected and I welcome it. You should too, and you should listen to others as you might learn a thing or two (not necessarily from me I might add). You appear to defend what you do at all costs. Go on admit you made a mistake with the no right turn. You'll feel better for it! I do not claim to be perfect (I post videos of my mistakes) and I am willing to admit mistakes. Are you?

 

[BentMikey]

The critique comes not because you don't conform with cyclecraft, but because we see the potential for problems with the way you ride. Cycling is so safe that you'll get away with these mistakes for years, and hopefully for ever, but sooner or later someone will make a mistake riding like that, a driver won't correct for the rider's actions, and there will be a crash.

None of us are perfect, and this whole exercise is simply a way to learn from your riding, and our own riding for that matter.

 

[bonj2]

Bonj,

In a quick look back at your video I found three times you filter on the left 3.55, 4.29 and 5.49 (although the car started moving so you aborted).
In none of these did you filter in a different lane. Filtering down the left approaching lights/junctions is unsafe because of the possibility of left turning vehicles and opening doors. I have witnessed near misses myself.

Great. It is not true to say that filtering on the left is necessarily unsafe in principle no matter how you do it. You may have read that it is, but all that means is that the person who wrote that book doesn't like doing it, or even that he himself or someone he knows has come a cropper due to it, but that doesn't mean that any instance of someone doing it is automatically dangerous. I'm sure if I got hit by lightning during a thunderstorm I'd be quite tempted to write a book telling people to stay indoors during thunderstorms, but that doesn't mean that going out in one is automatically very dangerous.

The way I do it I make sure I observe the possibility of opening doors and am always in a position to take evasive action if necessary, and as regards left turners, I am always either sufficiently far forward for them to see me or or even just go behind me regardless, or sufficiently far back for me to brake in time for them to go in front of me (as has happened to me on numerous occasions but I wouldn't even call that a near miss) - so therefore the way I do it, it isn't dangerous. It's all about knowing what the cars are likely to do, and with a fair amount of precision, when - and reacting accordingly, rather than just getting in a position where you are in their way but where it doesn't matter to you which of a whole host of imaginary daft, pointless manoeuvres they might try to pull off.

Where have I mentioned cyclecraft in this thread? Yes I have read cyclecraft (I certainly don't have time to read it every day!!).

Ah, cyclecraft, yes, that's the one not cycle logic. Well, you haven't explicitly mentioned it by name, but how else i.e. from what perspective are you accusing me of cycling unsafely? The only possible reason is because I'm not cycling how your cycling bible tells you to. Besides, you sound like you're reeling off quotes from it verbatim (even if you're not intending to), e.g. "Filtering down the left approaching lights/junctions is unsafe because of the possibility of left turning vehicles and opening doors. " sounds straight out of a guide book to me.

It's is a guide to cycling and doesn't cover every eventuality. However, it's guiding principles are sound and I would suggest you have read.

Have a look here http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/cv.html

I wouldn't read a book on cycling because it would be too generic. If it was written specifically about areas and junctions that I cycle then I would have a look, but I like to form my own habits specifically tailored to the situations I have to encounter, and that's subtley different for each particular junction. I believe if you cycle in a specific way like this you make the best possible progress whilst also allowing other road users to make the best possible progress and ensuring the safety of all. If you cycle in a generic, 'approved' way such as you obviously do having read that book, you are probably still as safe (albeit no more), but do a lot of unnecessary waiting.
For instance when you posted a video of yourself overtaking a car on the right and another car coming the other way didn't pull over but instead stopped and flapped her arms around feigning indignation, and you asked 'was I right to do this'. I thought, 'why is he even asking?' Course you were - if anything your only mistake was not being more aggressive.

Do you reckon you have more experience and expertise than Mr Franklin? What's your cycling CV?

Oooh,, let's see. Number of accidents: zero. Can Mr Franklin boast a better number?

I have critiqued your cycling because you have posted a video. That's the way it works. I get plenty of critique on mine. That's to be expected and I welcome it. You should too,

yes, that's fine - and I welcome constructive criticism.

and you should listen to others as you might learn a thing or two (not necessarily from me I might add). You appear to defend what you do at all costs.

and I do listen, however I don't always agree with it. I reserve the right to disagree, however it doesn't necessarily mean I don't like listening to what's being said. I will probably even take on board some of the suggestions and try them out, but I will probably only adopt them long term if they enable to me to make better progress or enable me to feel a lot safer while making equal progress.

Go on admit you made a mistake with the no right turn. You'll feel better for it! I do not claim to be perfect (I post videos of my mistakes) and I am willing to admit mistakes. Are you?

If my aim is to cycle with the aim of achieving theoretical perfection and being the perfect bastion of cycling correctness and setting a shining example to my disciples, then yes I made a mistake. But that's not my whole ethos. My aim is solely to get where I'm heading as quickly as possible and while not exposing myself or others to danger. My methods can be described as 'loose', even 'slapdash'. But to say it's dangerous is stretching the imagination a bit. I didn't expose myself to danger in that situation, as I could see the car well before you could see it on the camera, I knew its speed, and knew I could easily get to the other side of it and out of its path before it got to the part of road on which I crossed its path. I didn't put anyone else in danger because I could see that no other road user was in the space I was going to occupy, and no evasive action would have to be taken because the car driver would see that I was leaving his path just as soon as he saw me entering it.
Therefore, it was a perfectly safe manouevre, and thus I didn't see why I shouldn't do it. If a car driver chooses to use his horn as a display of petulence purely at someone making progress in a way that he can't, then it's his problem not mine.

 

[bonj2]

The critique comes not because you don't conform with cyclecraft, but because we see the potential for problems with the way you ride. Cycling is so safe that you'll get away with these mistakes for years, and hopefully for ever, but sooner or later someone will make a mistake riding like that, a driver won't correct for the rider's actions, and there will be a crash.

None of us are perfect, and this whole exercise is simply a way to learn from your riding, and our own riding for that matter.

Hmmm... well I suppose that nugget of criticism has at least got some grounding in logic. But I would still ask what the "potential for problems with the way I ride" are with specific examples referring to the commute video I posted.
Such as "x:yy in, you filter up the side of the so-and-so car and it could have been turning left and taken you out."

 

[magnatom]

Great. It is not true to say that filtering on the left is necessarily unsafe in principle no matter how you do it. You may have read .......

Come on Bonj, filtering down the left at traffic lights is intrinsically more risky than not filtering, or overtaking on the right. That is a fact and nothing to do with anything I have read in a book. One of the greatest killers of cyclists is left turning HGV's. Now I am not saying that there were any HGV's waiting to turn right on your commute, however, what if the lights change as you are approaching the lights and a car or van suddenly swings left? You get left hooked. That problem does not occur if you filter on the right and if you stop before you get to the front of the queue. Also by keeping to the right of the front of the car behind you are in better view of the driver. The best way to stay safe is to be seen.

The way I do it I make sure I observe the possibility of opening doors and am always in a position to take evasive action if necessary, and as regards left turners, I am always either sufficiently far forward for them to see me or or even just go behind me regardless, or sufficiently far back for me to brake in time for them to go in front of me (as has happened to me on numerous occasions but I wouldn't even call that a near miss) - so therefore the way I do it, it isn't dangerous. It's all about knowing what the cars are likely to do, and with a fair amount of precision, when - and reacting accordingly, rather than just getting in a position where you are in their way but where it doesn't matter to you which of a whole host of imaginary daft, pointless manoeuvres they might try to pull off.

You can never predict what a car driver will or wont do. You should always assume the worst. Can you really always tell when a passenger is going to open a door. You must have ESP then! Passing a car on the left is always more of a risk as a car door can open any time. Unless you are able to keep a door width away from the car then there is always a risk.

Ah, cyclecraft, yes, that's the one not cycle logic. Well, you haven't explicitly mentioned it by name, but how else i.e. from what perspective are you accusing me of cycling unsafely? The only possible reason is because I'm not cycling how your cycling bible tells you to. Besides, you sound like you're reeling off quotes from it verbatim (even if you're not intending to), e.g. "Filtering down the left approaching lights/junctions is unsafe because of the possibility of left turning vehicles and opening doors. " sounds straight out of a guide book to me.

If only my memory was this good

I wouldn't read a book on cycling because it would be too generic. If it was written specifically about areas and junctions that I cycle then I would have a look, but I like to form my own habits specifically tailored to the situations I have to encounter, and that's subtley different for each particular junction. I believe if you cycle in a specific way like this you make the best possible progress whilst also allowing other road users to make the best possible progress and ensuring the safety of all. If you cycle in a generic, 'approved' way such as you obviously do having read that book, you are probably still as safe (albeit no more), but do a lot of unnecessary waiting.
For instance when you posted a video of yourself overtaking a car on the right and another car coming the other way didn't pull over but instead stopped and flapped her arms around feigning indignation, and you asked 'was I right to do this'. I thought, 'why is he even asking?' Course you were - if anything your only mistake was not being more aggressive.

Ah your wrong here. That right side filtering I did, was in hindsight wrong. Why was it wrong, because there was a lorry I could not see past and I did not know what was in front of it. The car in front of it may have thought 'bu**er this I'm not waiting in this queue I know a faster route' (there is a faster route for cars!). They could have decided to do a u-turn and I would have gone slap into the side of the car. Without the lorry I would have been able to see this coming. So I was wrong, and willing to admit it. Did you not see that....?

Oooh,, let's see. Number of accidents: zero. Can Mr Franklin boast a better number?

You've previously claimed you have knowledge of statistics and yet you base your safe cycling on an n of 1? Just because you have not had an accident yet does not indicate that you do not have raised risk due to your cycling (as well you should know!).

I'll quote another statistic: number of years as an expert cycling witness

Bonj: 0 Franklin 15

My methods can be described as 'loose', even 'slapdash'. But to say it's dangerous is stretching the imagination a bit. I didn't expose myself to danger in that situation, as I could see the car well before you could see it on the camera, I knew its speed, and knew I could easily get to the other side of it and out of its path before it got to the part of road on which I crossed its path. I didn't put anyone else in danger because I could see that no other road user was in the space I was going to occupy, and no evasive action would have to be taken because the car driver would see that I was leaving his path just as soon as he saw me entering it.
Therefore, it was a perfectly safe manouevre, and thus I didn't see why I shouldn't do it. If a car driver chooses to use his horn as a display of petulence purely at someone making progress in a way that he can't, then it's his problem not mine.

You may well have been able to see him but he couldn't see you. What if he suddenly see's you and reacts (brakes, swerves etc), what if this causes an accident. Can you be sure this won't happen? Would you be at fault at all here?

At that junction it looks like there is a wall or hedge that you may be able see over which would maybe allow you to see a car (although you view looks like it is obstructed). However, what happens if BentMikey, was flying along there on his bent, obstructed by the wall until the last minute. Could you really see him in time?


If anyone apart from bonj gets to the end of this you get a virtual pint from me!

 

[bonj2]

Come on Bonj, filtering down the left at traffic lights is intrinsically more risky than not filtering, or overtaking on the right. That is a fact and nothing to do with anything I have read in a book. One of the greatest killers of cyclists is left turning HGV's. Now I am not saying that there were any HGV's waiting to turn right on your commute, however, what if the lights change as you are approaching the lights and a car or van suddenly swings left? You get left hooked. That problem does not occur if you filter on the right and if you stop before you get to the front of the queue. Also by keeping to the right of the front of the car behind you are in better view of the driver. The best way to stay safe is to be seen.

It may be slightly more risky but it's not that risky. The point is, do you do it carelessly or do you do it in such a manner that you anticipate what car occupants could possibly do and minimise the chances of that adversely affecting you.

You can never predict what a car driver will or wont do. You should always assume the worst.

Well no, that's not true. You can predict what they will do. You may not be right, and you should take the fact that you may not be right into account, but assuming the worst is tantamount to the 'might aswell stay in bed all day' mentality.

Can you really always tell when a passenger is going to open a door. You must have ESP then! Passing a car on the left is always more of a risk as a car door can open any time. Unless you are able to keep a door width away from the car then there is always a risk.

If there isn't a passenger in the car, as there often isn't, then the door isn't going to open of its own accord. And not only that, but a passenger opening a door doesn't happen at the speed of light. You can see it happening. Normally they look towards the door handle first, then they pull the handle opening it a little bit (this is when you take evasive action if necessary), then they open it all the way.
Saying a non-existent passenger might open a door at the speed of light with absolutely no other indication that they're intending to disembark from the vehicle (such as arrival at a place they might be going to, the driver stopping for no other reason, etc) is stupid as it's a bit like asking me to guarantee that nothing whatsoever untoward will happen. Course I can't guarantee that won't happen, don't be ridiculous - the point is I don't cycle around thinking "what if" all the time, when the 'what if' is infinitessimally unlikely.
Again, I ask you to refer me to at what point specifically in the video I am at risk from such an unlikely event happening.

You've previously claimed you have knowledge of statistics and yet you base your safe cycling on an n of 1?

what do you mean, "an n of 1" ??! What the hell is "n" supposed to represent?
Any mathematical discipline requires you to qualify all symbols used, you haven't, therefore you obviously don't know much about statistics or maths.

Just because you have not had an accident yet does not indicate that you do not have raised risk due to your cycling (as well you should know!).

NO but it's a good indication that I'm reasonably good at managing risk and diminishing it and keeping its likely effects to a minimum should it ever occur.

I'll quote another statistic: number of years as an expert cycling witness

Bonj: 0 Franklin 15

Now what the bloody hell is "expert cycling witness" supposed to mean, and what's so special about him that means he can call himself one.
Does that mean he's an expert at standing behind the lines at the tour de france 'witnessing' it?

You may well have been able to see him but he couldn't see you. What if he suddenly see's you and reacts (brakes, swerves etc), what if this causes an accident. Can you be sure this won't happen? Would you be at fault at all here?

It took at least a couple of seconds for him to get to the point where I crossed his path, but less than a second from the point of me entering his path to being out of it again. If his judgement of distance/speed is bad enough for him to think he needs to brake/swerve then he's either so crap a driver he shouldn't be on the road, or intoxicated, in which case he also shouldn't be on the road.

At that junction it looks like there is a wall or hedge that you may be able see over which would maybe allow you to see a car (although you view looks like it is obstructed). However, what happens if BentMikey, was flying along there on his bent, obstructed by the wall until the last minute. Could you really see him in time?

I think IIRC it's a low (about two foot) wall with a (see-throughable) fence on top of it, but even so there's pavement - i.e. the wall's not right up to the road. When I pulled out, I could see down the road sufficiently to be able to tell that there was nothing that could possibly have presented a danger, 'bents included.
I think to be honest though I would have been able to see even a 'bent over the wall anyway.

 

[magnatom]

This is getting very unwieldy so I will trucate it a little to some of the more interesting/amusing points.

If there isn't a passenger in the car, as there often isn't, then the door isn't going to open of its own accord. And not only that, but a passenger opening a door doesn't happen at the speed of light. You can see it happening. Normally they look towards the door handle first, then they pull the handle opening it a little bit (this is when you take evasive action if necessary), then they open it all the way.
Saying a non-existent passenger might open a door at the speed of light with absolutely no other indication that they're intending to disembark from the vehicle (such as arrival at a place they might be going to, the driver stopping for no other reason, etc) is stupid as it's a bit like asking me to guarantee that nothing whatsoever untoward will happen. Course I can't guarantee that won't happen, don't be ridiculous - the point is I don't cycle around thinking "what if" all the time, when the 'what if' is infinitessimally unlikely.
Again, I ask you to refer me to at what point specifically in the video I am at risk from such an unlikely event happening.

Filtering past the white van perhaps? Can you see if there is a passenger unless you are level with it? Can you see if the passenger is going to open the door?

You absolutely must cycle around thinking about 'what if'!! That is how advance drivers are taught, anticipate everything (within reason of course)!! If you filter down the left it is reasonable to expect that you could be doored.

what do you mean, "an n of 1" ??! What the hell is "n" supposed to represent?
Any mathematical discipline requires you to qualify all symbols used, you haven't, therefore you obviously don't know much about statistics or maths.

If you know anything about stats you would know what this means; sample size, a sample of 1.
I have a PhD in a physics related area, and I work on a number of clinical research projects. I have a little knowledge of such things.....

 

[bonj2]

Filtering past the white van perhaps? Can you see if there is a passenger unless you are level with it? Can you see if the passenger is going to open the door?

You absolutely must cycle around thinking about 'what if'!! That is how advance drivers are taught, anticipate everything (within reason of course)!! If you filter down the left it is reasonable to expect that you could be doored.

Well I'm sorry, I think the chances of the door opening when the driver has pulled up at least two feet from the kerb and suddenly enough for me not to be able to react is not high enough for me not to filter. If you feel differently then you don't need to do it do you. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[magnatom]

Well I'm sorry, I think the chances of the door opening when the driver has pulled up at least two feet from the kerb and suddenly enough for me not to be able to react is not high enough for me not to filter. If you feel differently then you don't need to do it do you. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Saw two passengers get out at lights yesterday. It could happen. Risk reduction is what it's all about.

Anyway bonj, any more videos yet?

 

[bonj2]

Saw two passengers get out at lights yesterday. It could happen. Risk reduction is what it's all about.

Anyway bonj, any more videos yet?

Not yet. i might take a little one of me riding around on the road tonight. There'll be more come the weekend.

 

[gambatte]

Got to say, that area about 01:20 looks like its part of the last mile of my commute. The whole areas a building/redevelopement site. Its the only area where my adherence to the road signals falters. The diversions can actually send you a mile out of your way onto the parkway (not allowed on a bike). The cars don't even follow them. Its a definite 'free for all' where you have to keep an eye out for where everyones going. Bonjs transgression is one of the minor ones I've seen down there.

Come in towards 'The Wicker' theres a 200yds que of thro traffic, at a sign that says 'busses, taxis, access only'. No one takes the route to the right 'cos it adds 300 yards and habit is to go straight on.

 

[bonj2]

Got to say, that area about 01:20 looks like its part of the last mile of my commute. The whole areas a building/redevelopement site. Its the only area where my adherence to the road signals falters. The diversions can actually send you a mile out of your way onto the parkway (not allowed on a bike). The cars don't even follow them. Its a definite 'free for all' where you have to keep an eye out for where everyones going. Bonjs transgression is one of the minor ones I've seen down there.

Come in towards 'The Wicker' theres a 200yds que of thro traffic, at a sign that says 'busses, taxis, access only'. No one takes the route to the right 'cos it adds 300 yards and habit is to go straight on.

gambatte, fyi: the red arrow points to where I did a 'dodgy' right turn onto a roundabout, the blue arrow points in the general direction of the wicker

from the "Scheme Plan" link (pdf) from here

it may be like it, but from what you've described as your commute I don't think it's actually on your commute though is it?
It's about here, but google maps only shows what it used to be like, hence my using the above pic to describe it!

You may recognise some of the streets on my more recent vid that I haven't uploaded yet but will do soon (corporation street, nursery street, park square, sheaf street, st mary's road, shoreham street, sheaf street again, park square again, exchange place, castlegate, bridge street.)

 

[gambatte]

my car commute takes me past the magistrates court, past van scheiks tattoist I then pick up your route past fabric warehouse and the baby center upto penistone road

I also used to go to town end of the wicker and cut down bridge street and about 01:03 on your vid, go straight on and cut thro/by the carpark.

I'll edit a bit of the pic and put my route up

 

[Elmer Fudd]

Is it just me but when I'm a passenger in a car I always look in my wing mirror and then over my shoulder before opening the door.

Just as I would do if I was driving (maybe the way I was taught).

You can never predict what a car driver will or wont do. You should always assume the worst. Can you really always tell when a passenger is going to open a door. You must have ESP then! Passing a car on the left is always more of a risk as a car door can open any time. Unless you are able to keep a door width away from the car then there is always a risk.