A lovely bit of cycling

[BentMikey]

Every 20 seconds? I suspect that's either a misquote, or someone else's quote.

My point is that I should never need my hearing to know where vehicles are around me, because I already know where they are from looking. Looking gives you heading, bearing and speed information, hearing simply can't do any of those as it's very non-directional and prone to confusing reflections.

Look properly, don't rely on your hearing. Far too many cyclists rely on their hearing and don't look when moving out around obstacles. You can try to deny that you do this, and that's quite possible, but the evidence is that very many cyclists do. We've all seen them out on the road.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

Frankly BM that's a rather daft statement, unless you really believe that you cannot look and listen at the same time?

You cannot see behind you all the time and in the seconds since you last looked, things change. I've seen elsewhere that you recommend looking every 20 seconds: In the time between your visual checks, a car at 30mph will have moved some 880 feet - that's 268 metres for the younger folks. In a typical urban environment that is from out of sight to on top of you. By listening you can know that a car is there and (if necessary) look to see what it is doing. I find that I can tell to within a second, when a car I hear will pass me and usually have a good idea of how much distance it will give, this influences my riding plan.

By ignoring the sounds around you, you are trusting to luck all the time that you are not looking behind.

As I previously said the two go hand in hand. ON a MTB Marathon people will often shout left or right to indicate the side they are passing on. A revving engine can warn you of a irate motorist before you turn your head. I would advocate looking before making a manoeuvre on a road but I would never advocate listening to music and thus cutting off your hearing.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

Every 20 seconds? I suspect that's either a misquote, or someone else's quote.

My point is that I should never need my hearing to know where vehicles are around me, because I already know where they are from looking. Looking gives you heading, bearing and speed information, hearing simply can't do any of those as it's very non-directional and prone to confusing reflections.

Look properly, don't rely on your hearing. Far too many cyclists rely on their hearing and don't look when moving out around obstacles. You can try to deny that you do this, and that's quite possible, but the evidence is that very many cyclists do. We've all seen them out on the road.

If you are looking around you that often you stand a good chance of not seeing what is in front of you. Hearing is as important as looking. How often have you seen a driver fail to notice an emergency vehicle with blues and twos going until it is pretty much on its' bumper. Do you think that is a failure of sight or hearing?

 

[BentMikey]

I'd like to think I don't usually compromise my forward observation, and that you don't need to either, to look properly. Gaz has a good example of balancing the risk of looking backwards a lot on one of his Croydon flyover videos, though that's quite an extreme example.

I also almost always see emergency vehicles before I can hear them. Not always, mind, but your example is a classic case of bad observation, not hearing. Drivers have no excuse at all for not looking with mirrors, and advanced drivers apparently check their mirrors every couple of seconds.

 

[Cheddar George]

Hearing is a useful tool out on the road. I know a car is behind me waiting to overtake because i've seen him, i know the precise moment when he starts overtaking whether i'm looking or not because of the engine note. At that point i look ahead and realise that i will probably be better off riding over the pothole/drain cover etc. instead of moving around it as the car overtakes.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

I'd like to think I don't usually compromise my forward observation, and that you don't need to either, to look properly. Gaz has a good example of balancing the risk of looking backwards a lot on one of his Croydon flyover videos, though that's quite an extreme example.

I also almost always see emergency vehicles before I can hear them. Not always, mind, but your example is a classic case of bad observation, not hearing. Drivers have no excuse at all for not looking with mirrors, and advanced drivers apparently check their mirrors every couple of seconds.

Interesting. My own experience is that I hear the siren before I see the vehicle. I may not know where the vehicle is until I see it but whilst light travels faster than sound light travels in straight lines and sound does not. Thus unless you are on a perfectly flat road with no visual blockages (other cars, etc) I will stand by my asserting that I will hear before see the vehicle.

 

[Mad at urage]

I'd like to think I don't usually compromise my forward observation, and that you don't need to either, to look properly. Gaz has a good example of balancing the risk of looking backwards a lot on one of his Croydon flyover videos, though that's quite an extreme example.

I also almost always see emergency vehicles before I can hear them. Not always, mind, but your example is a classic case of bad observation, not hearing. Drivers have no excuse at all for not looking with mirrors, and advanced drivers apparently check their mirrors every couple of seconds.

I think this is why BM dismisses listening for vehicles. Seriously BM, this is not a dig, I do think you should get your hearing checked! Sirens are used to warn people of the vehicles presence, they can be heard several streets away with normal hearing. Even driving in London I'll wind the windows down when I hear a siren, so I can listen for its direction. They are (almost*) never in sight when I first hear them and I usually identify the direction before they are in line of sight.



*Exceptions e.g. when they put the siren on whilst sitting in a queue next to me

 

[Mad at urage]

Hearing is a useful tool out on the road. I know a car is behind me waiting to overtake because i've seen him, i know the precise moment when he starts overtaking whether i'm looking or not because of the engine note. At that point i look ahead and realise that i will probably be better off riding over the pothole/drain cover etc. instead of moving around it as the car overtakes.

Good example.

Another example is when I simply don't need to look, because I know I need to maintain my road position. Looking would tell me nothing I don't already know: There is a vehicle approaching and it will pass me in xx seconds. I don't look, it passes, then I look to see if there is anything behind that I hadn't heard.

 

[marzjennings]

I don't see how you think that bit from Cyclecraft in any way suggested only using your hearing. It said "complemented by listening". You look, AND you listen, just like the green cross code said. Things may be audible before they are in sight, just as they may be visible, but inaudible. No one said you shouldn't look as well.

That said, I frequently use my hearing to warn me of the approach of an emergency vehicle, invisible because it's either some way behind me on a road with bends in it, or approaching a junction where I can't see to the sides yet due to buildings. I hear the siren, I look round and try to locate the vehicle, and listen to try and work out the direction, and prepare to pull over - if only to avoid the drivers around me who won't hear it or see it until the last minute, due to being cocooned in boxes with the radio on, and who will most likely pull over suddenly without thinking about my presence.

So great, in your example by hearing the siren of an emergency vehicle you're now aware that within a half mile of you there's an emergency vehicle somewhere. You're now listening out and looking for where that emergency vehicle may be and distracted from your continual need to navigate the traffic conditions directly around you. We don't like to see drivers distracted by listening to conversations on the phone, but somehow as cyclists we develop additional cognitive powers to decode audible and visual stimuli at the same time. I don't think so.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

So great, in your example by hearing the siren of an emergency vehicle you're now aware that within a half mile of you there's an emergency vehicle somewhere. You're now listening out and looking for where that emergency vehicle may be and distracted from your continual need to navigate the traffic conditions directly around you. We don't like to see drivers distracted by listening to conversations on the phone, but somehow as cyclists we develop additional cognitive powers to decode audible and visual stimuli at the same time. I don't think so.

You are simply made aware of the possibility that the vehicle may be near you. As the sound gets louder the vehicle gets closer. The brain can process this information very easily. It is in now way comparable with holding a Mobile Phone conversations. By your argument Sirens should not be used as they distract all road users

 

[marzjennings]

Hearing is a useful tool out on the road. I know a car is behind me waiting to overtake because i've seen him, i know the precise moment when he starts overtaking whether i'm looking or not because of the engine note. At that point i look ahead and realise that i will probably be better off riding over the pothole/drain cover etc. instead of moving around it as the car overtakes.

If you're having to consider whether it's ok to go around a drain cover at the edge of the road you're in the wrong position on the road.

 

[Cheddar George]

Draincover/manhole call it whatever you want.

 

[marzjennings]

Good example.

Another example is when I simply don't need to look, because I know I need to maintain my road position. Looking would tell me nothing I don't already know: There is a vehicle approaching and it will pass me in xx seconds. I don't look, it passes, then I look to see if there is anything behind that I hadn't heard.

You always need to look, wow, I'm just stunned by your total lack of traffic awareness. You've assumed that the vehicle you've heard is going to safely pass you by without any visual confirmation. I'm impressed by your dependence on your ninja hearing skills and the trust you have in them,

.

You really take you eye off the car that's just passed you to check behind. If you'd been looking behind you to check traffic you'd already have an idea of whether it's one or a queue of traffic. Wait, with your ninja hearing powers you can't count the number of cars behind you.


If I don't know the make and model of the car coming up behind I haven't checked enough.

 

[marzjennings]

You are simply made aware of the possibility that the vehicle may be near you. As the sound gets louder the vehicle gets closer. The brain can process this information very easily. It is in now way comparable with holding a Mobile Phone conversations. By your argument Sirens should not be used as they distract all road users

It's absolutely comparable, if you're splitting your attention between traffic directly around you and noises you've heard in the distance you are distracted.

Sirens are critical to road safety, but as a cyclist your concern is the 100ft radius around you.

For example I saw and heard the ambulance traveling down the other side of the road, I saw all the cars pull over to give it space and I adjusted accordingly and if I hadn't been watching the road ahead carefully I would have missed the police car (who hadn't seen me) doing a U turn in the street to follow the ambulance.

 

[Mad at urage]

You always need to look, wow, I'm just stunned by your total lack of traffic awareness. You've assumed that the vehicle you've heard is going to safely pass you by without any visual confirmation. I'm impressed by your dependence on your ninja hearing skills and the trust you have in them,

.

You really take you eye off the car that's just passed you to check behind. If you'd been looking behind you to check traffic you'd already have an idea of whether it's one or a queue of traffic. Wait, with your ninja hearing powers you can't count the number of cars behind you.


If I don't know the make and model of the car coming up behind I haven't checked enough.

And if you look, and it isn't - you are going to do what exactly? Ninja roll out of the way as it covers the last two feet @ 30mph? Bunny hop it?

I can certainly hear if there is a queue behind me, I will need to look to see if there is a sneaky cyclist behind me, or a queue approaching 'way down the road.