Are we being forced to go electric?

[farfromtheland]

"...a joy propos'd: behind, a dream. All this the world well knows..."

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017...lectric-cars-carbon-sustainable-power-energy/
...or, out of the frying pan into the fire - battery storage is hugely costly to the environment and looks to remain so.

 

[cougie uk]

"...a joy propos'd: behind, a dream. All this the world well knows..."

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017...lectric-cars-carbon-sustainable-power-energy/
...or, out of the frying pan into the fire - battery storage is hugely costly to the environment and looks to remain so.

That's four years ago though ? Recycling of batteries is becoming better and more common. Once a car battery doesn't hold the range needed - after many years - it can be used for home storage. Hook it up to your solar and you could even be self sufficient.

 

[Gillstay]

"...a joy propos'd: behind, a dream. All this the world well knows..."

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017...lectric-cars-carbon-sustainable-power-energy/
...or, out of the frying pan into the fire - battery storage is hugely costly to the environment and looks to remain so.

Where was the HUGELY costly ? It does'nt seem to say that.

 

[Time Waster]

Article in the news recently said raw materials used in car batteries are going up in price and it will make buying EVs even more out of the range of most people. In another article there's a really big development made in battery tech that will make EVs a whole lot cheaper.

Conflicting stories, which is right?

 

[farfromtheland]

Gillstay, for a start the World Economics Forum page I posted has a meta-tagline 'Producing batteries for green technology harms the environment...'

Then the piece links to this article -
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/graphite-mining-pollution-in-china/

Then it says this -
" Firstly, producing an electric vehicle contributes, on average, twice as much to global warming potential and uses double the amount of energy than producing a combustion engine car. This is mainly because of its battery. Battery production uses a lot of energy, from the extraction of raw materials to the electricity consumed in manufacture. "

Then it links to this -
https://www.somo.nl/cobalt-blues/
- which describes the impact of cobalt mining on the Congo which is the main source of Cobalt for battery manufacture, saying,
" This research reveals new evidence of human rights violations and environmental negligence and argues that abuses caused by Katangas industrial mining industry are not only serious, but also structural. " and giving a link to the full report.

Then it discusses the problems of recycling lithion batteries, saying, amongst other things,
" Recycling lithium costs five times as much as extracting virgin material. Hence, only 5% of lithium-ion batteries are recycled in Europe. " As Cougie says, this was 5 years ago. Perhaps recycling is improving? I'd like to see by how much.

If you would like to find out more, please do share.

 

[Tenkaykev]

`

Gillstay, for a start the World Economics Forum page I posted has a meta-tagline 'Producing batteries for green technology harms the environment...'

Then the piece links to this article -
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/graphite-mining-pollution-in-china/

Then it says this -
" Firstly, producing an electric vehicle contributes, on average, twice as much to global warming potential and uses double the amount of energy than producing a combustion engine car. This is mainly because of its battery. Battery production uses a lot of energy, from the extraction of raw materials to the electricity consumed in manufacture. "

Then it links to this -
https://www.somo.nl/cobalt-blues/
- which describes the impact of cobalt mining on the Congo which is the main source of Cobalt for battery manufacture, saying,
" This research reveals new evidence of human rights violations and environmental negligence and argues that abuses caused by Katangas industrial mining industry are not only serious, but also structural. " and giving a link to the full report.

Then it discusses the problems of recycling lithion batteries, saying, amongst other things,
" Recycling lithium costs five times as much as extracting virgin material. Hence, only 5% of lithium-ion batteries are recycled in Europe. " As Cougie says, this was 5 years ago. Perhaps recycling is improving? I'd like to see by how much.

If you would like to find out more, please do share.

I’m of the understanding that LiFePo ( Lithium Ferrous Phosphate ) batteries will be used in the vast majority of batteries. It has several advantages including double the predicted lifetime of Li ion and the ability to withstand a more rugged charge / discharge cycle.
While it doesn’t have quite the range of Li ion, it’s ideal for most people and uses none of the more exotic materials such as cobalt.
With regards to the report, it’s interesting to see who is funding the World Economic Forum.

 

[CXRAndy]

`

I’m of the understanding that LiFePo ( Lithium Ferrous Phosphate ) batteries will be used in the vast majority of batteries. It has several advantages including double the predicted lifetime of Li ion and the ability to withstand a more rugged charge / discharge cycle.
While it doesn’t have quite the range of Li ion, it’s ideal for most people and uses none of the more exotic materials such as cobalt.
With regards to the report, it’s interesting to see who is funding the World Economic Forum.

Lets sweep under the rug, the environmental cost of extracting crude oil. transportation, refining, more transportation, burning of fuel

Most of the anti electric propaganda originates from fossil fuel companies or ICE manufacturers
There are many cherry picking data twisting anti electric data

An example https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/02/aston-martin-pr-firm-anti-electric-vehicle-study

 

[Gillstay]

Gillstay, for a start the World Economics Forum page I posted has a meta-tagline 'Producing batteries for green technology harms the environment...'

Then the piece links to this article -
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/graphite-mining-pollution-in-china/

Then it says this -
" Firstly, producing an electric vehicle contributes, on average, twice as much to global warming potential and uses double the amount of energy than producing a combustion engine car. This is mainly because of its battery. Battery production uses a lot of energy, from the extraction of raw materials to the electricity consumed in manufacture. "

Then it links to this -
https://www.somo.nl/cobalt-blues/
- which describes the impact of cobalt mining on the Congo which is the main source of Cobalt for battery manufacture, saying,
" This research reveals new evidence of human rights violations and environmental negligence and argues that abuses caused by Katangas industrial mining industry are not only serious, but also structural. " and giving a link to the full report.

Then it discusses the problems of recycling lithion batteries, saying, amongst other things,
" Recycling lithium costs five times as much as extracting virgin material. Hence, only 5% of lithium-ion batteries are recycled in Europe. " As Cougie says, this was 5 years ago. Perhaps recycling is improving? I'd like to see by how much.

If you would like to find out more, please do share.

Sorry, still don't see where you go from the hugely costly to the environment, then talk about human rights violations and structural abuses.
You seem to have gone off topic a bit. Its looking like the batteries after they have been in cars can be used power storage where as your stating as though they are used and then thrown away. Years ago a friend put solar panels on his roof. 10 years to pay back. This looked like a poor deal, until 3 months on electric prices rose and it paid off in 7 years. Things are moving forward, what is there to gain from holding back.

 

[gzoom]

I’m of the understanding that LiFePo ( Lithium Ferrous Phosphate ) batteries will be used in the vast majority of batteries.

LiFePo has some serious real world limitations, 50 minutes spent sat at a SC and DC charging rates never get above 30KW.


View: https://youtu.be/fgxOWmHCK8E


Imgaine you have no home charger, and assume you can charge at 150KW at a DC rapid chargers but as soon as winter comes you cannot even charge at 30KW!!! This isn't progress, its going backwards .

 

[MrGrumpy]

EVs more likely to suffer tyre damage and wheel damage due to weight . Also damaging the roads more due to excess weight

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...wheel-tyre-breakdowns-petrol-diesel-cars.html

 

[BrumJim]

Not convinced by the statistics on this.

There isn't much to go wrong on an electric car, so would naturally expect non-motor related failures to comprise a much higher proportion of call-outs. Would need to see the %age of electric clients having tyre damage compared with the %age of ICE drivers doing the same.

Insurance companies are not known for rigorous statistical analysis, particularly where it upsets their carefully crafted press-release.

 

[cougie uk]

EVs more likely to suffer tyre damage and wheel damage due to weight . Also damaging the roads more due to excess weight

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...wheel-tyre-breakdowns-petrol-diesel-cars.html

That's rubbish.

They do point out that EVs have less mechanical breakdowns compared to ICE cars - so it stands to reason that a greater percentage of EV breakdowns are flat tyres.

I bought my EV in 2020. According to "we buy any car" it's gone up in value. Not had that before !

 

[MrGrumpy]

I bought my EV in 2020. According to "we buy any car" it's gone up in value. Not had that before !

plenty ICE cars have also gone up in value !

 

[CXRAndy]

A little bit of anecdotal evidence. We have driven over 100000 miles in a little over 3 years. No punctures. Best life 48000 miles for a set of tyres, worst 24000 miles.

We have saved literally thousands of pounds in fuel costs, hundreds in VED.

Then there is literally thousands of tonnes saved in C02, not to mention exhaust particulates, and NOX.

 

[Electric_Andy]

I'm not sure it's as cut and dry as some are making out, regarding school runs. Many more cars on the road now, too dangerous for anyone of primary school age to walk alone. There are no walking buses at mine. More common for both parents to work now, compared to when we were at school.

Walking my son to school would make me 45 minutes late for work every morning. Sometimes there's no way around it. An electric vehicle would not make any difference to safety or congestion, and the green credentials are questionable