Are we being forced to go electric?

[farfromtheland]

I think part of the problem is that politicians and issue groups are driving measures, rather than scientists and engineers.

I think the best way to go for now, and perhaps for the foreseeable, is methane. It is a much cleaner burn than propane/butane 'autogas' and is available from landfill emissions, if we harvest it as we should.

Fiat made a few methane versions of production models in the 90s. A petrol to methane conversion on an existing ICE is probably easier than an autogas install. Methane can enter a combustion engine through the air intake, and doesn't corrode the exhaust valves, as far as I know.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

I think the best way to go for now, and perhaps for the foreseeable, is methane. It is a much cleaner burn than propane or butane 'autogas' and is available from landfill emissions, if we harvest it as we should.

Fiat made a few methane versions of production models in the 90s. A petrol to methane conversion on an existing ICE is probably easier than an autogas install. Methane can enter a combustion engine through the air intake, and doesn't corrode the exhaust valves, as far as I know.

I think propane is the cleaner of those you mention, but non-are deemed as climate suitable.

 

[farfromtheland]

I think propane is the cleaner of those you mention, but non-are deemed as climate suitable.

"Compared to other hydrocarbon fuels, methane produces less carbon dioxide for each unit of heat released."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

Also, as a practical example, here it is being used directly by farms. Methane emissions are an environmental problem but burning it can be more of a solution.
https://produceprocessing.net/article/Vegetable-fruit-waste-can-produce-electricity/

 

[classic33]

"Compared to other hydrocarbon fuels, methane produces less carbon dioxide for each unit of heat released."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

Also, as a practical example, here it is being used directly by farms. Methane emissions are an environmental problem but burning it can be more of a solution.
https://produceprocessing.net/article/Vegetable-fruit-waste-can-produce-electricity/

For a small farm one
"...a plant treating slurries and manure that includes a simple digester and CHP unit could cost in the region of £750,000 – £1m."

https://birchsolutions.co.uk/how-much-does-it-cost-to-build-a-biogas-plant/

They don't come cheap, and you do not want it siting too close to your house. Especially in warmer weather.

 

[farfromtheland]

For a small farm one
"...a plant treating slurries and manure that includes a simple digester and CHP unit could cost in the region of £750,000 – £1m."

https://birchsolutions.co.uk/how-much-does-it-cost-to-build-a-biogas-plant/

They don't come cheap, and you do not want it siting too close to your house. Especially in warmer weather.

Well maybe not, but not too far either, for transport costs, and there are worse things. The good side is they can be funded on a scale affordable by communities rather than governments or massive business interests. Methane is a by product of farming whether we like it or not, unlike bio-ethanol which needs crops grown specifically, though its burn is cleaner.

The environmental costs of raw materials are minimal too, compared to wind or solar. Even recycling batteries for power storage and aluminium for wind farms has a carbon footprint that is not costed in by most industrial scale advocates.

 

[classic33]

Well maybe not, but not too far either, for transport costs and there are worse things. The good side is they can be funded on a scale affordable by communities rather than governments or massive business interests.

The environmental costs of raw materials are minimal too, compared to wind or solar. Even recycling batteries for power storage and aluminium for wind farms has a carbon footprint that is not costed in by most industrial scale advocates.

You've not been near one then?

Do you ever cycle when they're out spreading it? The slurry is free, so long as you have a sufficient herd nearby. If you're keeping them solely for the methane, then factor in the feed, vets fees and where you'll be keeping them.

 

[CXRAndy]

The mould is cast. ICE will be reduced to very special usage. Battery tech is here now, people are literally buying into the technology.

It would take a monumental announcement, that scientists have sorted the conversion of all ICE to some other cheap, readily available fuel. And its available now.

Apart from diehard petrol heads, electric cars are far nicer, easier to drive than ICE.

 

[farfromtheland]

You've not been near one then?

Do you ever cycle when they're out spreading it? The slurry is free, so long as you have a sufficient herd nearby. If you're keeping them solely for the methane, then factor in the feed, vets fees and where you'll be keeping them.

I am against factory livestock farming for many reasons. Plant waste is also a source of methane, as in the article I linked, as is landfill.

Where livestock is already farmed indoors methane could be produced, but I would be against this on ethical and environmental grounds. I was specifically looking at methane as a byproduct of more sustainable processes.

 

[DRM]

The mould is cast. ICE will be reduced to very special usage. Battery tech is here now, people are literally buying into the technology.

It would take a monumental announcement, that scientists have sorted the conversion of all ICE to some other cheap, readily available fuel. And its available now.

Apart from diehard petrol heads, electric cars are far nicer, easier to drive than ICE.

The general public aren’t buying into EV’s they’re mainly leased company vehicles that the drivers are issued/ordered to save BIK payments, the price is la la land for the ordinary motorists right now

 

[cougie uk]

Aren't most new cars leased anyway ? We bought our EV second hand and it wasn't that much more expensive than ICE.
I reckon our fuel bills are about 1/10th of what they used to be.

The general public aren’t buying into EV’s they’re mainly leased company vehicles that the drivers are issued/ordered to save BIK payments, the price is la la land for the ordinary motorists right now

 

[DRM]

All the ones I’ve seen pounding the motorways are less than 3 year old repmobiles

 

[classic33]

Aren't most new cars leased anyway ? We bought our EV second hand and it wasn't that much more expensive than ICE.
I reckon our fuel bills are about 1/10th of what they used to be.

What does it cost to charge the car, compared to filling up with petrol?
Assuming you only charge the vehicle where you pay for it.

Bear in mind, the possible difference in mileage from two seperate power systems.

 

[cougie uk]

Just over £2 for a full charge (that we hardly ever do - we rarely get that low or need to charge that high).

The range on that is probably 1/3 to 1/4 of the range of our ICE car that has a 55 litre tank. That costs over £80 to fill.

Our electric tariff is cheap hours after midnight and we can do all our normal recharging then.

 

[MrGrumpy]

Reading another thread over on another car forum I frequent . I Pace battery pack if needing replaced is £42k . Another member had their BMW ( don’t know the model ) 18 month old have the battery replaced under warranty £19k. Scary stuff and im aware these are outliers but geez , as someone mentioned further up , if you can you would lease or PCP as long as in warranty. Scares the life out of me if these batteries jacked in out of warranty . Here’s hoping they get down to cheap as chips.

 

[CXRAndy]

Aren't most new cars leased anyway ?

Something like over 90% of all car purchases are leased whether private or company