roubaixtuesday
self serving virtue signaller
EVs are so much more efficient than ICE they pay back their embedded carbon even if powered by fossil fuel generated leccy. Even if you scrap an ICE car to buy one.
Are we being forced to go electric?
- Thread starter gavroche
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EVs are so much more efficient than ICE they pay back their embedded carbon even if powered by fossil fuel generated leccy. Even if you scrap an ICE car to buy one.
cougie uk
Guru
Bikes or walking is best. Public transport is great. If you have to drive get an EV.
EVs won't fix congestion though so we need to work on bike paths and buses etc.
Noted today in the news that the Gov is looking once again at road tolls . That zero road tax isn’t going to pay for much !
cougie uk
Guru
I don't doubt that road tolls will be the way it goes - pay per mile used.
Although remember how long it took them and how many millions to decide that they couldn't do the national identity card ?
Probably decades away !
I didn't say it was evil. What I said is that the article highlighted that in an EV world, the idea of a combustion engine would be ludicrous, dangerous and inefficient.Funny nobody questioned any of this until fairly recently. Now all of sudden it’s evil ? Everyone driving around in their EVs patting themselves in the back , saving the environment ! Utter bollocks. My sister and bro in law came over with the family at the weekend. My Lads 21st . Tesla nowhere to be seen. Had to bring the dirty diesel instead as not enough room for 5 and a dog ! That’s what happens when you get sucked into buying the wrong car !
You can get 5 people in a Tesla easily, and the dog. Although the dog would be in the boot space which it probably wouldn't like. They would have been better with a Tesla Y or X.
And yes, EVs do help save the environment:
https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change
In a nutshell, manufacturing is about the same, creating the battery is not terribly environmentally friendly at the moment, but over the life of the vehicle emissions from tailpipe and fuel cycle are much much higher in an ICE vehicle than an electric. Obviously this is tempered by where the country you are in gets its electricity. If the electricity is from renewable or Nuclear sources (e.g. Norway or France) , than EVs make much more sense than in countries still burning coal.
figbat
Slippery scientist
- Location
- South Oxfordshire, UK
There is also the consideration of where and when emissions are generated. Of course there are carbon emissions associated with EV charging, but these emissions are disconnected from the car in both time and place. They are coming out of a power plant that is being constantly fettled and managed for efficiency and running at or near peak efficiency much of the time, compared to an ICE which rarely operates at peak efficiency and puts its emissions out wherever it goes. On a global scale this make little difference but for local emissions it is important. And an ICE's emissions are pretty fixed whereas the energy mix for charging an EV is variable, with the portion of renewable generation constantly changing and generally trending upwards, meaning over a 3 year ownership period, the EV power source can become cleaner whereas the ICE will be stuck on hydrocarbons for its whole life.
Reading this back I sound like an EV evangelist but I'm not really - I have an EV and it has proven perfectly capable of meeting my daily transport needs. But then I also have a motorbike and my wife has a ICE car and they all have their role to play. The bike is a toy which I don't need but it's a source of enjoyment. The ICE pulls the caravan and does the heavy lifting when needed - this will probably be replaced by a PHEV next time around. So rather than being an evangelist, I am being a realist. We can't do everything we want to with an EV, but we can do most of it.
Reading this back I sound like an EV evangelist but I'm not really - I have an EV and it has proven perfectly capable of meeting my daily transport needs. But then I also have a motorbike and my wife has a ICE car and they all have their role to play. The bike is a toy which I don't need but it's a source of enjoyment. The ICE pulls the caravan and does the heavy lifting when needed - this will probably be replaced by a PHEV next time around. So rather than being an evangelist, I am being a realist. We can't do everything we want to with an EV, but we can do most of it.
Won’t be decades though this time ! It’s hard cash that’s not going to be coming in due to their own rules !! They will have to stick VED on EVs or tax the by the mile you drive !
figbat
Slippery scientist
- Location
- South Oxfordshire, UK
Or put duty on electricity.
Alex321
Guru
- Location
- South Wales
Not necessarily.
They will need to raise money from somewhere to cover the lost revenue, but it doesn't have to be from somewhere similar.
They could put VAT back up to 25%, for instance. Or various other options.
That will be very popular indeed .
This may have already been mentioned, but in the so called EV range tests that pop up occasionally, they always seem to be done on dry, sunny days on generally 'flattish' roads.
Yet to see ones done in the winter at night, in the rain driving around Scotland, Yorkshire or north Wales.
Might make a difference you think - ?
Yet to see ones done in the winter at night, in the rain driving around Scotland, Yorkshire or north Wales.
Might make a difference you think - ?
cougie uk
Guru
It's no different from the ICE vehicles though is it ? Did anyone ever get the MPG that manufacturers promised from that ?This may have already been mentioned, but in the so called EV range tests that pop up occasionally, they always seem to be done on dry, sunny days on generally 'flattish' roads.
Yet to see ones done in the winter at night, in the rain driving around Scotland, Yorkshire or north Wales.
Might make a difference you think - ?
When choosing your EV you need to think about the every day mileages you do. If your commute is 20 miles round trip do you really need a 300 mile battery to lug around every trip ?
Gillstay
Veteran
That's the same for any vehicle, my petrol Toyota will do 56mpg on a sunny day, but only 48 on a wet winters day. Even a wheel barrow is harder to push on a wet day !This may have already been mentioned, but in the so called EV range tests that pop up occasionally, they always seem to be done on dry, sunny days on generally 'flattish' roads.
Yet to see ones done in the winter at night, in the rain driving around Scotland, Yorkshire or north Wales.
Might make a difference you think - ?
Yep. That's why the EV Database exists.This may have already been mentioned, but in the so called EV range tests that pop up occasionally, they always seem to be done on dry, sunny days on generally 'flattish' roads.
Yet to see ones done in the winter at night, in the rain driving around Scotland, Yorkshire or north Wales.
Might make a difference you think - ?
Take the Tesla Model 3 long range for example:-
https://ev-database.uk/car/1591/Tesla-Model-3-Long-Range-Dual-Motor
Real world range is between 215 and 435 miles depending on weather and type of driving.
Or take the car I've ordered (ish - it's actually the pure but the 2022 model which has a longer range so I've gone with the Pro as an example):-
https://ev-database.uk/car/1627/Volkswagen-ID4-Pro
Between 180 miles and 370 miles.
Now my Renault Grand Scenic *can* do 55 miles to the gallon and holds 11.5 gallons of diesel. So that's a range of 600 miles.
I fill it up roughly every two weeks.
So, why would I choose to get a car with (on average) a third of the range of my current car?
- The headline figure for the scenic isn't real world. I actually get around 38 to 42mpg depending on how much I'm sitting in traffic. So about 500 miles on a good day.
- The reason that the Scenic can do about 500 miles is that owners of ICE cars don't want to visit a petrol station every day to fill up.
- When I'm stuck in traffic, my Scenic is still burning diesel. An EV will be using enough battery to power the in car entertainment - so not very much.
So, as long as I can find somewhere to charge when I get there, the ID4 will get me pretty much anywhere I need to go without needing to stop for a charge. If I visit the Lake District again, then I'll need a stop. Last time we stopped at Alton Towers for the night and yes, they don't have any chargers (yet - they say they are looking into it), but there are places to charge nearby, and we did stop at the services on the way there and again between Alton Towers and the Lake District - so plenty of opportunities to top up.
But that's a real outlier of a journey.
I don't need an EV that can go 500 miles because most of the time, it will be at home, and fully charged when it needs to be.
The whole "you need more range in an EV before they are viable" is complete rubbish. It's like trying to compare a landline with a mobile and complaining that the mobile is just going to run out of charge, so a land line is better.
They are different. So comparing them on range is pointless.
Finally - if you are really worried about the real world impact of weather, this is a good article:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38883045/electric-cars-snow-cold-fact-check/
There was a blizzard in Wisonsin with people stuck for up to 16 hours.
Yep. In an EV he stayed warm, and watched some movies for 14 hours and still had enough range to get to a supercharger, avoiding the huge queues for gasoline.
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