Armstrong charged and banned

[yello]

the sport is as guilty as he would be.

I'd ask you to think about that statement again.

Re not being caught, dopers are ahead of the testing. They know how and, more importantly, when to dope. Google Marion Jones if you want an example of a doper that never tested positive.

 

[Boris Bajic]

I still watch pro cycling and I still enjoy it, but I don't love it with a passion the way that I used to. My naive belief that it was a clean and healthy sport was shattered by the Festina bust and everything that followed. It's like forgiving a partner for an affair - you might still be very fond of them, but things can never be quite the same again ...

When was the last clean Tour ...? Well, I believe that Greg Lemond's win in 1989 was clean. Watching that Tour was what encouraged me to buy a bike and start riding again. I'm sure that cheating was going on then too, but it was shortly after that that EPO abuse became widespread and you can see what happened to the results of great riders like Lemond, Hampsten and Fignon in the early 90s. They could no longer compete and retired rather than joining in the abuse.

There are a few top riders that I really believe are clean. Cadel Evans is one - I'd be horrified if he turned out to be a cheat too. He simply looks like he is suffering a lot when he is going flat out. I get really pissed off seeing riders fly up mountain after mountain and then cross the finishing line looking like they have just done an easy recovery ride, not even having the decency to pretend to be out of breath!

I'm sure that many riders only cheated because they were convinced that everybody else was! Warped logic made it okay because it was a 'level playing field' again. The thing is - it killed the careers and aspirations of many fine young cyclists who were not willing to 'prepare properly'.

I'm not a mile from you in my viewpoint, but nor am i in the same place. I like your reply but disagree with you on the detail.

I think Greg lemond was a quite remarkable athlete and Cadel Evans still is one. Both men are heroic in what they've endured and battled.

I also believe that both have been involved in untoward medication to improve their performance.

Good friends of mine who are closer to the sport than I am swear that Cadel is clean. Their argument (it turns out) is based on the Hemisphere of his birth and the sad-puppy visage he carries around. People have a soft spot for Cadel Evans in a way that they don't for Lance Armstrong.

I see great romance, heroic struggle and all the beauty and pain of toil in the TdF despite the ignoble use of stimulants.

I quite understand that for you and others the latter cheapens or diminishes the former. For me it was, is and always will be there.

 

[rich p]

FWIW, Bjarne Riis never had a positive test either and Mr60% has since admitted his guilt. If only Armstrong would do the same and save us all the crap that will be spouted.
Riis's answer to questions regarding his doping were invariably answered with this...

... Speculations about Bjarne Riis's doping use was further fuelled by his ambiguous denials. When asked whether he used doping he repeatedly stated that "I have never tested positive". A statement that falls somewhat short of an outright denial.

Now who does that remind you of?

 

[albion]

Marion Jones kept missing drug tests.

If you do not get tested you do not get caught!

 

[rich p]

For those of you with an interest in this case and to see its relevance to current pro racing and some of those still involved - yes, you Bruyneel, I suggest you have a look through this...

.... http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/armstrongcharging0613.pdf

It's incendiary stuff.

 

[Flying_Monkey]

Marion Jones kept missing drug tests.

If you do not get tested you do not get caught!

That's what can't happen anymore with the 'whereabouts' rules.

 

[festival]

Listen to Armstrong, then listen to Kimmage, who do you believe?
Armstrong is a nasty piece of work, a control freak who bullies people into silence.
If you rely on the world of cycle racing for your lively hood you keep your mouth shut and look the other way.
For someone who threatens to sue anyone who goes against him, its funny how the people who have questioned the Armstrong miracle from a position of strength have not been sued. e.g. Kimmage, Walsh, Lemond, Landis.
I don't care about the record books being screwed trying to find a worthy TdF winner. I don't care ( as much ) about all the other cheats getting away with it. And I don't care ( so much ) about the old days when riders took stuff to survive and get a contract.
But I do care about the lies and deception peddled by "Saint Lance "and his mafia who have hijacked our sport and shoot on it.
How many of you on here ride in his teams kit or wear his yellow band and feel that's OK ?

 

[Flying_Monkey]

People have a soft spot for Cadel Evans in a way that they don't for Lance Armstrong.

Really? Cadel Evans was one of the least popular members of the peloton, even amongst many Aussies, untils quite recently. His petulant behaviour towards reporters, his 'funny' voice, his cultured off-duty interests, and even rumours about his sexuality, meant that he's never endeared himself to the average (and by average, I mean thick as a brick) male sports fan.

 

[festival]

Such as in the Golden Days when Copi, Mallejac, Rivière, Anquetil, Simpson, Mercx, Yates, Kelly & Pantani where racing ? All dopers .
The Tour and professional cycling has never been "real" !

Its because its a very "real and brutal" sport that riders in the past needed "help" to survive and earn a living when medical support of the correct kind did not exist.
Its easy to glamorize the past, but If Armstrong is guilty, it will be like comparing defrauding millions from a hospital to fiddling your expenses.

 

[woohoo]

Heartless? We're talking about Lance Armstrong here - the guy who has been involved in a systematic deception and been utterly ruthless towards anyone who tried to speak out about it. He's the very definition of heartless.

Anyone doubting this should re-read the details of the Simeoni incident during the 2004 TdF

 

[lukesdad]

FWIW, Bjarne Riis never had a positive test either and Mr60% has since admitted his guilt. If only Armstrong would do the same and save us all the crap that will be spouted.
Riis's answer to questions regarding his doping were invariably answered with this...

... Speculations about Bjarne Riis's doping use was further fuelled by his ambiguous denials. When asked whether he used doping he repeatedly stated that "I have never tested positive". A statement that falls somewhat short of an outright denial.

Now who does that remind you of?

Noodley.

 

[lukesdad]

 

[Buddfox]

Listen to Armstrong, then listen to Kimmage, who do you believe?
Armstrong is a nasty piece of work, a control freak who bullies people into silence.
If you rely on the world of cycle racing for your lively hood you keep your mouth shut and look the other way.
For someone who threatens to sue anyone who goes against him, its funny how the people who have questioned the Armstrong miracle from a position of strength have not been sued. e.g. Kimmage, Walsh, Lemond, Landis.
I don't care about the record books being screwed trying to find a worthy TdF winner. I don't care ( as much ) about all the other cheats getting away with it. And I don't care ( so much ) about the old days when riders took stuff to survive and get a contract.
But I do care about the lies and deception peddled by "Saint Lance "and his mafia who have hijacked our sport and s*** on it.
How many of you on here ride in his teams kit or wear his yellow band and feel that's OK ?

Journalists aren't usually held up to be arbiters of moral standards, so not sure we should be painting Kimmage as a saint by comparison - everyone has their own agendas to push. I'm not sure I have the evidence to believe either of them.

I think Armstrong has probably doped at some point - but if you were him and genuinely innocent, wouldn't it grate on you after a while with all the accusation? I can see how that might have turned him into the malevolent character everyone paints him out to be.

 

[mangaman]

Anyone doubting this should re-read the details of the Simeoni incident during the 2004 TdF

Or Bassons - arguably even worse

 

[festival]

Journalists aren't usually held up to be arbiters of moral standards, so not sure we should be painting Kimmage as a saint by comparison - everyone has their own agendas to push. I'm not sure I have the evidence to believe either of them.

I think Armstrong has probably doped at some point - but if you were him and genuinely innocent, wouldn't it grate on you after a while with all the accusation? I can see how that might have turned him into the malevolent character everyone paints him out to be.[/quote

How can you say " I think Armstrong has probably doped at some point" and then try to sympathize with him.
Read anything Kimmage has written and tell me you still feel that way.