BBC report on womens cycling & fatalities

[PBancroft]

I notice in your post you don't comment on the substance of the article but instead choose to seize on my belief that the post is by a troll.

Actually, no, I do specifically comment on the substance of his article, but use it as an opportunity to refer to the wider scope of the issue. Yes the post is generalised, but thats what most people see in - generalisations. I chose to seize on the situations as a whole, not just your post or that one. The poster see's cyclists behaving one way (badly), but as I laid out before in my subjective post I think he doesn't "see" cyclists behaving well, therefore of course he isn't going to be surprised that cyclists are involved in accidents.

Now don't get me wrong - I disagree with what he says, but I can understand how someone can legitimately believe what he says.

Is it really any different to people on this very forum making sweeping generalisations about motorcyclists, drivers, WVM or taxi drivers?

 

[summerdays]

I think the article is good because its in a place with a high passing viewing public. Anything that makes cyclists or lorry drivers think about how to avoid those terrible fatalities is good. Females are more likely to hug the kerb than men because they are less assertive - and I think its that timidness that causes some of the problems.

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

I agree with Crankarm with regard to the two overtaking manovers illustrated, both are highly dangerous. I’ve cycled since being a kid and driven everything from motorcycles all the way up to 100+ foot loads, loads up to 100ton and wide high stuff. I must admit the road users who scare the hell out of me most are what I would call none serious cyclists, from experience (although I had never really thought of it before) I find women cyclists (of the none serious type) do tend to ride much more timidly than men, the idiot men cyclist scare the hell out of normal road users. I was taught on my motorcycle training which was from the local police that you must always command your road space, riding in the gutter only encourages idiot drivers to try and squeeze passed. I am still convinced that the reason cyclists get knocked off by left turning HGV's is because they still haven’t got the message that going up the inside of one is extremely dangerous (people doing this seems a lot higher in London traffic from my travels !) if they weren’t there they wouldn't be run over ! As yet!!!! This has never happened to me and I put this down to the fact I don't go up the inside of any vehicle at lights. As far as the RLJ thing I quite often ( legally right or wrong) Run the red light stop marker to give me a head start on traffic although I don't actually run the junction, If this is what they are calling RLJ then I can see how it would stop this situation happening to some degree.
This all comes down to cyclist education, as far as I can work out if zero cyclist go up the inside of large vehicles then zero cyclist get crushed. May be cyclists/cycle shops could help here, a bit of safety info at point of sale even a little DVD done by local cyclists and a few signs cable tied to lampposts/Railings at junctions by local cyclists may help ( although only the educated may pay any attention to these !) Complaints to local councils about dodgy cycle lanes that encourage cyclists up the inside at junctions or any other junctions /traffic flows which make cycling dangerous ( How many dodgy road surfaces horrible junctions, dodgy cycle lanes do you come across on you commute ?) and my last thought for the day is
DO NOT UNDERTAKE /OVERTAKE AT JUNCTIONS FULL STOP

 

[GrasB]

This all comes down to cyclist education, as far as I can work out if zero cyclist go up the inside of large vehicles then zero cyclist get crushed.

I agree that if a large vehicle is at the front of the queue it's not worth the hassle of passing it. With that said I've had a number of occasions where I've gone down roads I've not intended to due to small lorries & vans turning left through me after we've pulled away from the lights or despite having to pull over the centre line of the road to overtake. Okay not articulated HGVs but smaller lorries & vans have done this, as well as cars.

DO NOT UNDERTAKE /OVERTAKE AT JUNCTIONS FULL STOP

What do you mean by "at a junction"? The 500m queue before the junction or a few cars short of the stop line?

 

[PK99]

This all comes down to cyclist education, as far as I can work out if zero cyclist go up the inside of large vehicles then zero cyclist get crushed.

I agree with all in your post except this: Part of the problem is cyclists stopping at TL's hard on the left, allowing an HGV to come along side. I see it all the time in london.

1. If you arrive first at a TL, stop in primary position. If an hgv stops on your tail, move forward into his field of view

2. If you don't arrive first, take your position in the queue in Primary position, well back from the vehicle infront and maintain that through the junction at least as far as needed to be certain no one is going to turn left across you.

 

[purplepolly]

as far as I can work out if zero cyclist go up the inside of large vehicles then zero cyclist get crushed.

Sorry but that's a bit naive as it doesn't allow for extreme driver stupidty.

I've been waiting in primary at the lights, outside of and to the right of the cycle lane so as it make it obvious that I'm not turning left, and people have driven up on my right and then they've turned left.

If I hadn't of been so wracked with urban-commuter-cyclist-paranoia I wouldn't have checked for which way they were going as I set off and would have been hit. On one occasion this was a hgv.

 

[Crankarm]

I agree with Crankarm with regard to the two overtaking manovers illustrated, both are highly dangerous. I’ve cycled since being a kid and driven everything from motorcycles all the way up to 100+ foot loads, loads up to 100ton and wide high stuff. I must admit the road users who scare the hell out of me most are what I would call none serious cyclists, from experience (although I had never really thought of it before) I find women cyclists (of the none serious type) do tend to ride much more timidly than men, the idiot men cyclist scare the hell out of normal road users. I was taught on my motorcycle training which was from the local police that you must always command your road space, riding in the gutter only encourages idiot drivers to try and squeeze passed. I am still convinced that the reason cyclists get knocked off by left turning HGV's is because they still haven’t got the message that going up the inside of one is extremely dangerous (people doing this seems a lot higher in London traffic from my travels !) if they weren’t there they wouldn't be run over ! As yet!!!! This has never happened to me and I put this down to the fact I don't go up the inside of any vehicle at lights. As far as the RLJ thing I quite often ( legally right or wrong) Run the red light stop marker to give me a head start on traffic although I don't actually run the junction, If this is what they are calling RLJ then I can see how it would stop this situation happening to some degree.
This all comes down to cyclist education, as far as I can work out if zero cyclist go up the inside of large vehicles then zero cyclist get crushed. May be cyclists/cycle shops could help here, a bit of safety info at point of sale even a little DVD done by local cyclists and a few signs cable tied to lampposts/Railings at junctions by local cyclists may help ( although only the educated may pay any attention to these !) Complaints to local councils about dodgy cycle lanes that encourage cyclists up the inside at junctions or any other junctions /traffic flows which make cycling dangerous ( How many dodgy road surfaces horrible junctions, dodgy cycle lanes do you come across on you commute ?) and my last thought for the day is
DO NOT UNDERTAKE /OVERTAKE AT JUNCTIONS FULL STOP

Whilst there are undoubtedly cyclists who do play Russian roulette with large and heavy vehicles by going up the nearside adjacent to the kerb, I don't think it is quite as simplistic as you are stating to avoid these collisions. On occasions it is apparent that drivers of both cars and particularly larger vehicles have turned in on cyclists who are continuing straight on or have tried to overtake them on a bend/turn where both the cyclist and the large vehicle are both turning in the same direction of travel. The cyclist rapidly disappears from view in this latter scenario and is put in great danger. eg 8 wheeler aggragate trucks with double front wheels that turn sharply can easily crush a cyclist . With railings bordering roads in many urban landscapes there is nowhere for cyclists to escape to, to avoid being struck by a vehicle. Dreadful.

 

[HJ]

I am still convinced that the reason cyclists get knocked off by left turning HGV's is because they still haven’t got the message that going up the inside of one is extremely dangerous

Here we go, just blame the victim!

I personally know someone who was hit by a left turning lorry, he did not try and filter passed the lorry. It overtook him and then turned left on top of him. The only thing he did wrong was to be too close to the kerb, but the driver should have been looking before over taking.

 

[summerdays]

I am still convinced that the reason cyclists get knocked off by left turning HGV's is because they still haven’t got the message that going up the inside of one is extremely dangerous ....
This all comes down to cyclist education, as far as I can work out if zero cyclist go up the inside of large vehicles then zero cyclist get crushed. [/B]

Sorry I disagree strongly with that - some of the cyclists killed in London were experienced cyclists. Lorry drivers have to take some of the blame.

I agree with all in your post except this: Part of the problem is cyclists stopping at TL's hard on the left, allowing an HGV to come along side. I see it all the time in london.

1. If you arrive first at a TL, stop in primary position. If an hgv stops on your tail, move forward into his field of view

2. If you don't arrive first, take your position in the queue in Primary position, well back from the vehicle infront and maintain that through the junction at least as far as needed to be certain no one is going to turn left across you.

Agree with those points.

Cyclists do need to think about where they stop at a junction. On my way home I stop in an ASL at the front of 2 lanes of traffic with a central feeder lane. I'm going straight on, whereas most traffic (cyclists included) are either going left or right (which is nearly straight on). I stop in the middle of the ASL, but most cyclists stop on my left and I end up having to give a quick comment that I'm going straight on.

 

[joolsybools]

Sorry I disagree strongly with that - some of the cyclists killed in London were experienced cyclists. Lorry drivers have to take some of the blame.



Agree with those points.

Cyclists do need to think about where they stop at a junction. On my way home I stop in an ASL at the front of 2 lanes of traffic with a central feeder lane. I'm going straight on, whereas most traffic (cyclists included) are either going left or right (which is nearly straight on). I stop in the middle of the ASL, but most cyclists stop on my left and I end up having to give a quick comment that I'm going straight on.

Can I just for a second play devils advocate re the term 'experienced cyclist'. I want to say now that this post in no way relates to any cyclist that has been killed or seriously injured.

We do hear this term being used and I wonder what people consider an 'experienced cyclist'. Someone who has been riding most weeks for 6 months? A year? 5 years? 10 years?

I know people who have been riding for years who may consider themselves experienced. It does not however necessarily mean they are good cyclists.

What do others think?

I really it's more to do with education and attitude.

 

[purplepolly]

What do others think?

I really it's more to do with education and attitude.

+1

The other factor is that someone who has been cycling regularly for years may have very little or no experience of cycling on urban roads.

Whereas someone who's been commuting for 6 months in that environment and has the right attitude will be a lot better placed to cope with the traffic.

 

[GrasB]

While I agree that there's a number of people who take fairly suicidal action on the road with regard to motor vehicles I my self & other people have been nearly taken out by drivers who basically ignore anything that's happening beyond the back of the drivers seat.

 

[ComedyPilot]

Is it me, or shouldn't the onus of responsibility be on the driver of the TONS of metal that killed the women?

I wonder how many of the drivers were men?

I wonder how many have previous motoring convictions for speeding, careless/dangerous/drunk driving or road rage?

 

[Origamist]

There needs to be more research in this area. The headline figures and recent press reports suggest an over-representation of women involved in fatal HGV collisions - however, at a national level, I'd be interested to see a detailed road traffic collision study covering the last 30 years as I doubt the difference in gender and HGV cycling fatalites is as marked as the media portrays (or is even a factor for that matter).

 

[jimboalee]

In a recent survey of Jaguar Cars Ltd employees, it was shown that lady drivers 'expected' other drivers to be courteous and men drivers 'expected' other drivers to be aggressive.
Another result of the survey was that women had a lower 'spatial awareness' than men. The ability to judge speed, distance and timings was poorer in the female contributors to the survey.

Many ladies stated they would slow down or even apply the brakes when another vehicle with headlamps on was approaching in the opposing direction, even though they knew that vehicle wouldn't collide with them.

Many ladies said they were pleased to 'now know' how an articulated transport truck swings out of the dispatch bay – closing the gap between the vehicle's side and the apex of the curve.

Most men already knew this happened.