Being yelled at and perceptions of cyclists....

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Norm

Guest
I think that is a perception / misunderstanding thing as well.

Confusions have arisen from the meaning of "primary", the time to use / not use "primary" and the significance of allowing cars to pass when there is space available.

For me, those confusions have not been exclusively Jimbo's. (And I'm not just saying that because I'm heading up to meet him in the morning. :smile: )
 

jimboalee

New Member
Location
Solihull
OK jimbo, why all the to-ing and fro-ing and all the contradictory prose all through this thread?

Well lads, I wanted to keep this thread near the top of the list waiting for someone to say what I am hearing off the vast majority of cyclists who are older than forty.

I gave two clues in my last post. The policeman told us to “keep to the left at all times”, and “A bunch of twelve year olds riding through a town main street like they 'owned the road'.

Back in the late sixties, early seventies, there were about a quarter of the number of cars as today, and popular cars were somewhat smaller than today’s models. There was lots of room for a cyclist on the left and a car. This is the reason for PC Plod’s advice.

Now you have to remember Mr Franklin first published in 1988, and had probably been researching and writing for a few years before that. Where did he get all these ideas about ‘riding in his Primary’ and ‘keeping out of the doorzone’?
By own experience and talking to experienced cyclists, the CTC and well respected club riders?

My schoolchums and I, and subsequent riding groups whom I rode with before Mr Franklin's book appeared, rode in a manner much like what Mr Franklin later advised.

Did no-one else on this chatboard ride ‘sensibly’ before CycleCraft became available?

As for the 21st century Newbie. Buy a copy of CycleCraft and learn the ‘code’ contained within. OR, find a cycle club and watch how they ride. The styles will not be dissimilar, but the older club riders will be Precyclecraftites.

As for being abusively shouted at by motorists. My first incident in 1995ish was when I rode in ’Primary’ or ‘took the road’. This was something I and many, many cyclists had been doing for years, and in those days, I didn’t even know CycleCraft existed!
Now there is this book which tells the newbie cyclist the safest place to ride is in ‘Primary’. In the same number of years, road traffic has trebled, so no wonder incidents of abuse from motorists are on the increase.
 
I will cycle the way I am happy with and if people on here don't like it tough.

Also I haven't read cyclecraft and the book mysteriously disappeared.
I have no plans to either.

Call it cocky but I see a lot of arrogance on here.
 
I think that cycle craft has a lot of the lessons I leant the hard way over many years.
You can take what you want from it.

But back to being yelled at.
Again, last night I had a chav wagon with 4 young males in, accelerate up behind me on a tight village bendy road as I had my arm out turning right, and tell me to get a car, (thanks rebuttal section for the 'if you get on a bus' reply ;-)
They followed me then u-turned.....then.....after shouting out the reg plate for the muvi camera I got.....


.....an apology from the driver!!! First time ever!!

Is it silly season for chav car comments? Even by my usual winter standards it seems a high ratio to me.
 

Bman

Guru
Location
Herts.
semislickstick said:
They followed me then u-turned.....then.....after shouting out the reg plate for the muvi camera I got.....


.....an apology from the driver!!! First time ever!!

xx( !

This has to be seen to be believed! :smile:
 

Arch

Married to Night Train
Location
Salford, UK
jimboalee said:
Well lads, I wanted to keep this thread near the top of the list waiting for someone to say what I am hearing off the vast majority of cyclists who are older than forty.

Oh right. You weren't just misunderstanding and then trying to wriggle out...

Age doesn't matter a jot, so get off your age high horse. Experience does matter. Someone returning to cycling having never done it since they were a kid, and then possibly with no training or advice at all, needs to know how to make themselves as safe as possible. They can listen to you banging on about your childhood cycling, or they can buy and read a book, or they can do both. They are not mutually exclusive. You apparently got primary and secondary mixed up, and spent the first half of the thread apparently telling people not to do what you then told them to do once you twigged. So I'd suggest the book is a more reliable witness... What you call primary doesn't matter, as long as the newbie understands, which I think over the years most of those who've asked here have done because they listened and didn't jump to conclusions....
 

tdr1nka

Taking the biscuit
S'funny, I'm over Forty and I still consider Cylecraft(which has been revised regularly and not stuck in 1988)as a valuable tool for cyclists.
Not everyone wants to join a club and not everyone feels the need to get training so to recommend Cyclecraft as important reading for cyclists wouldn't seem such a bad idea now would it?

Road safety has moved on a bit since the days of the Tufty Club, there are different names for things and where needed drills have been changed to suit the roads and the increase in traffic of the modern age.
 

jimboalee

New Member
Location
Solihull
tdr1nka said:
S'funny, I'm over Forty and I still consider Cylecraft(which has been revised regularly and not stuck in 1988)as a valuable tool for cyclists.
Not everyone wants to join a club and not everyone feels the need to get training so to recommend Cyclecraft as important reading for cyclists wouldn't seem such a bad idea now would it?

Road safety has moved on a bit since the days of the Tufty Club, there are different names for things and where needed drills have been changed to suit the roads and the increase in traffic of the modern age.

This is another point worthy of discussion. After talking to lots of experienced cyclists who didn’t have any particular terminology for road positioning, Franklin made up some names.
He called the centre of the carriageway ‘Primary’ and the part of the road in the nearside tyre tracks ‘Secondary’.
“Arse about face” as soon as I first read the book.

Riding with groups of cyclist for many years, the ‘normal’ position ( re. nuttycyclist ) is the ‘First’ position to be, and ‘the middle’ is the second position to be when there are obstructions or you don’t want the vehicles following to come past you.

It took a few years for Franklin’s nomenclature to be accepted and now it’s carved in granite within the minds of his disciples, including the bureaucratic numbsculls in transport planning offices throughout the land.

The fact of the matter is, Franklin ‘cocked up’, but then realised it was too late to correct the blunder once the book had gone into print.

It is a dreadful error, giving new cyclists the confused idea they can ride down the middle of the carriageway, ‘bold as brass’ and motorists won’t mind a jot.

Franklin’s ‘Secondary’ should be primary, the position where the cyclist is seen and where the motorist needs to manouver round to pass when he can. Franklin’s ‘Primary’ should be called Secondary, the position taken by the cyclist when there is a hazard in the road ahead.
 

brokenbetty

Über Member
Location
London
jimboalee said:
This is another point worthy of discussion. After talking to lots of experienced cyclists who didn’t have any particular terminology for road positioning, Franklin made up some names.
He called the centre of the carriageway ‘Primary’ and the part of the road in the nearside tyre tracks ‘Secondary’.
“Arse about face” as soon as I first read the book.

Riding with groups of cyclist for many years, the ‘normal’ position ( re. nuttycyclist ) is the ‘First’ position to be, and ‘the middle’ is the second position to be when there are obstructions or you don’t want the vehicles following to come past you..

Is there a bangs-head-against-wall smiley anywhere?

They are Primary and Secondary in relation to the road itself, not from the point of view of a specific road user.
 

thomas

the tank engine
Location
Woking/Norwich
jimboalee said:
The fact of the matter is, Franklin ‘cocked up’, but then realised it was too late to correct the blunder once the book had gone into print.


If he cocked up he could change it. Rewrite sections and republish it as a newer edition.
 

jimboalee

New Member
Location
Solihull
thomas said:
If he cocked up he could change it. Rewrite sections and republish it as a newer edition.

And confuse everyone even MORE...:rofl:


Honestly, I've had worse 'bitter and twisted', 'acidic' response from Franklin's disciples on this chatboard than from my parish Vicar concerning my views of the Bible.

Am I going to be excommunicated?

RDRDR
 

thomas

the tank engine
Location
Woking/Norwich
jimboalee said:
And confuse everyone even MORE...:rofl:

I'm sure my old school text books says that Pluto is a planet....but I doubt the new ones do. Not that confusing.

When I'm feeling better I might do a video on how I use primary (and secondary). There are some good roads around where I live to demonstrate how I use them.
 

Norm

Guest
thomas said:
I'm sure my old school text books says that Pluto is a planet....but I doubt the new ones do. Not that confusing.
But switching the names primary and secondary would be more akin to calling the star at the heart of our solar system "Pluto". You'd need to come up with completely different names.
 

jimboalee

New Member
Location
Solihull
Norm said:
But switching the names primary and secondary would be more akin to calling the star at the heart of our solar system "Pluto". You'd need to come up with completely different names.

It would be more akin to calling the star at the heart of our solar system "an insignificant yellow sun in the western spiral arm of the Milky Way galaxy", and

calling the Earth "a speck of dust in the enormity of the universe".
 
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