Bike vs HGV

[col]

None of us can look everywhere at the same time, but Im sure we all do our best.
An ex colleague was pulling away from a stop, he did his nearside check which was clear, he then did his offside to start moving away, and as he moved someone ran into the side of his bus and was dragged under the rear wheel on his nearside in the seconds it took while he was watching for oncoming vehicles as he moved away. Would you say he should have seen them? Or maybe others put themselves into dangerous places and then blame the driver? If you can invent a way of looking near and offside at the same time while also looking ahead, then these things might not happen. Or maybe the people that put themselves in these positions are to blame, just maybe?

 

[col]

They get killed by HGV drivers moving off not knowing what is in their "blind spot" , how the pedstrian,cyclist, car, motorcyclist , barrier, bollard etc... arrives in the "blind spot" is irrelelvant. If the operator of the machinery is not certain that it is safe to operate the machinery then he shoudn't be operating it. It's a simple ethos that is accepted in every other industry, why is the haulage industry the only one with apologists?

It takes just a second or two for something to appear then dissapear into a blindspot if there is one. In that time a driver can be looking where he is going, avoiding other vehicles or even other cyclists. The lights need to be looked at, the driver needs to be looking the way he is going. there could be any number of things to take the drivers attention from one area or any area. If he looks to his nearside, what about his offside or even in front, What do you suggest?

 

[beastie]

They get killed by HGV drivers moving off not knowing what is in their "blind spot" , how the pedstrian,cyclist, car, motorcyclist , barrier, bollard etc... arrives in the "blind spot" is irrelelvant. If the operator of the machinery is not certain that it is safe to operate the machinery then he shoudn't be operating it. It's a simple ethos that is accepted in every other industry, why is the haulage industry the only one with apologists?

It may be irrelevant to the principle of safe design and operation of the lorry how a cyclist etc arrives in the blind spot, but please consider the actual world of traffic and then answer the following question.

Do you / would you filter on the near side of HGV's and Busses?

 

[col]

Where did he NEED to look?

He probaly needed to look where he was looking at the time, and the time before that and the time before ect ect. Do you really think drivers of large vehicles want to run over someone? Thats why drivers suffer from fatigue and stress, your constantly looking and concentrating to minimise accidents.

 

[upsidedown]

If you put yourself in a dangerous situation it is not fair to expect the driver to get you out if it. Keep well away, might cost you a minute or two on your journey but so what ?

 

[Little yellow Brompton]

If you put yourself in a dangerous situation it is not fair to expect the driver to get you out if it. Keep well away, might cost you a minute or two on your journey but so what ?

If you have a piece of equipment that you know is dangerous to others, it is not fair to expect everyone else in the world to allow you to use it. Get your equipment/operating practices changed, it might cost you a penny or two ( which you will pass on) but so what?

 

[Bayerd]

If you have a piece of equipment that you know is dangerous to others, it is not fair to expect everyone else in the world to allow you to use it. Get your equipment/operating practices changed, it might cost you a penny or two ( which you will pass on) but so what?

I would have thought it's simpler and more effective to change the behaviour of cyclists to stop them filtering up the nearside of large vehicles. The message should be that we should cycle defensively rather than aggressively, which is no different to how drivers are taught to drive.

If the cyclist in the video hadn't filtered, he wouldn't have been squished.

 

[fossyant]

Do you / would you filter on the near side of HGV's and Busses?

No, for the exact reason they can't see you.

 

[Origamist]

This film was staged and Bentmikey was involved (he was filming as well, IIRC). It was made in two parts.

I believe the film was not "officially" released by TFL. It was posted anonymously online earlier this year, but both vids were made private soon after.

This is another re-uploading of half of the film.

It's worth remembering that cyclists who are involved in collisions with HGVs are not, by any means, always undertaking on the left.

 

[Dan_h]

If you have a piece of equipment that you know is dangerous to others, it is not fair to expect everyone else in the world to allow you to use it. Get your equipment/operating practices changed, it might cost you a penny or two ( which you will pass on) but so what?

Well, kind of. Plenty of equipment in engineering shops for example can be dangerous. I use this as an example because I used to work in one. That is why there were rules about using it or approaching people while they were using it in order to stay safe. The same with the roads. Motorised vehicles moving around are dangerous, that is why there are rules both for the people operating them and those in close proximity to them. Follow the rules and you will be pretty safe. Don't follow the rules (e.g the cyclist filtering to the left of the heavy truck) and you are at least as responsible for the accident (if not more so) then the driver who flattens you.

At the end of the day what would you rather do? Take responsibility for your own safety, or rely on an unknown driver in a heavy vehicle with limited visibility to notice you in a position that you should not be in to begin with?

 

[upsidedown]

At the end of the day what would you rather do? Take responsibility for your own safety, or rely on an unknown driver in a heavy vehicle with limited visibility to notice you in a position that you should not be in to begin with?

that

 

[scouserinlondon]

I think we all need to get real here. The vast majority of HGV drivers regard themselves as professionals and try to operate at the highest possible standard. However the statistics clearly show that one of the most likely things to kill you as a cyclist in London is a truck. The whys and wherefores about whether or not a driver should see you are pretty irrelevant; if you collide with a truck you are likely to die.

Based on these simple facts I have the working assumption that for the sake of self preservation i am extremely cautious around HGVs I never go up the inside and frankly try to avoid overtaking them at all.

Yes HGV drivers need to take responsbility to drive safely. Yes, operators need to equip and maintain vehicles to a high standard. And yes, very often they don't do these things. But regardless of right or wrong, the simple fact is this; if a trucker hits you he'll go home at the end of the day. You on the other hand, won't.

 

[Dan B]

Well, kind of. Plenty of equipment in engineering shops for example can be dangerous. I use this as an example because I used to work in one. That is why there were rules about using it or approaching people while they were using it in order to stay safe.

Right, and do you set it up and run it in the middle of a public place with no barriers to stop people approaching and no effective observation of them when they do? If that's not acceptable in your industry, why do we think it's ok for haulage?

(None of this should be taken as advice to go up the inside of one anyway, which I happily agree is a stupid idea. But so is feeding your fingers to a table saw, and yet engineering companies are still required to have rules about their use instead of just saying "you get what you deserve" - why do we not hold road users to the same standard?)

 

[Dan_h]

Right, and do you set it up and run it in the middle of a public place with no barriers to stop people approaching and no effective observation of them when they do? If that's not acceptable in your industry, why do we think it's ok for haulage?

(None of this should be taken as advice to go up the inside of one anyway, which I happily agree is a stupid idea. But so is feeding your fingers to a table saw, and yet engineering companies are still required to have rules about their use instead of just saying "you get what you deserve" - why do we not hold road users to the same standard?)

Although the road is a public place by choosing to cycle on it we are also choosing to follow the rules that govern the use of that road (or at least we should be!). Now I know that not everybody follows the rules properly whatever their choice of vehicle, but if they did the road would be safer for all road users.

I don't believe that anyone getting run over by a truck "get's what they deserve" all I mean is that by putting yourself in a dangerous position then expecting another road user to notice you in that position is not a sensible or responsible thing to do.

 

[Little yellow Brompton]

I would have thought it's simpler and more effective to change the behaviour of cyclists to stop them filtering up the nearside of large vehicles. The message should be that we should cycle defensively rather than aggressively, which is no different to how drivers are taught to drive.

If the cyclist in the video hadn't filtered, he wouldn't have been squished.

Simpler for who exactly?

Don't you believe that the entity that brings the dangerous object into the environment is responsible for making it safe?