Bow Roundabout- second death

[Matthew_T]

There is no compulsory sterilisation in China.

I didnt really mean sterilisation but this: http://maps.unomaha.edu/peterson/funda/Sidebar/ChinaPop.html

 

[Hip Priest]

One of the strangest thing about this otherwise excellent forum is the tendency towards extreme viewpoints. This tendency is perfectly illustrated here, with cyclists suggesting we halt population growth to prevent cyclist deaths.

 

[vickster]

That's a nice new article from 1997

The views are changing it seems http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-14112066

 

[dawesome]

More cyclists on the roads does not mean more deaths. Accident rates decrease as cycling levels rise, f

or example, a community that doubles its cycling numbers can expect a one-third drop in the per-cyclist frequency of a crash with a motor vehicle:​

​

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080903112034.htm

I'm not generalising, I'm saying in my experience scaffolding and tipper lorries are often driven by sociopaths, that's my direct, personal experience backed up with evidence from the cops and enquiries into fatalities caused by lorry drivers.

 

[dawesome]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15708426

"The mayor needs to take responsibility"

 

[albion]

<br />I'm not sure I agree with the gender-related part of this argument...  I see little evidence for it.  My daughter displays no 'natural caution' on a bike.  She's played torreador with taxis in Paris and won.<br /><br />However, to date I have found that a 'sprinty' approach to junctions and an 'all knees and elbows' approach to getting through traffic does have safety benefits.<br /><br />In the past I've called it the Schwantz or Simoncelli method of making space, but recent events have made that comparison invalid (and perhaps even draw into the question whether using it is in good taste).<br /><br />So...  I agree that speed and assertiveness 9rather than aggression) can help, but I don't buy the gender thing.<br />

<br /><br /><br />
I don't know the stats but gender stats do feel very disproportional.

I'm can actually be very cautious in traffic treating each situation quite independently.

 

[HLaB]

I'm just reading about it on the bbc website, the 2nd cyclist in three weeks one quote made me angry though

"TfL have previously said that there is nothing that they can do to make the roundabout safer, without causing traffic jams.

Well make traffic jams then, surely lives are worth more

 

[Bicycle]

The arithmetic on that one should provoke a revolution.

But it won't.

The quote is slightly crass in its wording, but the reality of the stance will not make the wider London community bat an eyelid.

 

[Shaun]

I've split this thread away from the RIP thread as it didn't seem appropriate to have arguments there. This forum suits the wider disucssion of Big City cycling safety better and can now be expanded upon.

It also ties-in somewhat with this other Campaign thread:
http://www.cyclechat...-london-nov-12/

Shaun

 

[Piemaster]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15706706

Heart warming that there are those who care and take the time to ride to raise awareness.

 

[Richard Mann]

Bow roundabout could perfectly well be designed to deal with the motorised traffic volume and be safe for cycling (not necessarily quite as quick for cycling, mind, but not that bad given it's the junction between two major highways).

Similarly most gyratories could be designed to cope with the motorised traffic volume, and make them a lot safer for cyclists (though slower for right-turning traffic). Compare Kings Cross to the junctions at the Angel, or at Eversholt St. Turning bans are much better than gyratories.

If you turn this into a cyclist-death vs traffic-congestion debate then you will lose.

 

[dellzeqq]

wow so scaffolders and tipper drivers are sociopaths .


better tell my dad then , he drove tippers for 20 years and never killed anybody. he very nearly killed himself in a tipper to avoid killing another road user who did something stupid . broke his spine and nearly paralysed him . but that generalisation is OK I suppose.

as for scaffolders , most I know and deal with are just like you and me. normal people don't generalise like that please it lowers the tonne and does nothing for your argument.



i can also guarantee that 99% of cars on the road are aslo driven outside the law. albeit minor deviations . driving hours offences can be as simple as not pressing the right button on the tacho at the right time . doesn't mean the driver has not rested properly it means he didn't press the right button

whether you like it or not, tippers cause a disproportionate number of deaths. Half of all cycling deaths are caused by construction related traffic. If a group of drivers cause a hugely disproportionate number of deaths, then you look at that group and see what can be done. And there's a lot that can be done............

1. Designers have a duty to assess andminimise risk, and yet they draw schemes that rely on huge quantities of‘muck-away’. They draw underground car parks and retaining without considering what happens to the spoil, and the risk involved in carrying it from a site in London to a gravel pit somewhere outside of London. In this respect they are derelict.There’s a great show of concern about the design of electrical cupboards, roofaccess, and ramps, but none of these are is anywhere near as dangerous as the removal and transport of spoil. Designers should account for their decisions and they should establish that underground works are vital to the project. If,in their wisdom, they decide that works resulting in muck-away are vital to theproject, then it is incumbent on them to insist that the Contractor reduce the risk.

2. Contractors have a duty to assess and minimise risk. Again, there is a great show of concern about helmets, goggles, gloves and safety shoes, and all kinds of precautions whenever a ladder is used, but their attitude to risks off site is that it’s somebody else’s problem. Why, you might ask, are haulage firms found to have hired drivers with prior convictions still in business? Why do Main Contractors not ask for a clean bill of health from haulage subcontracters?

 

[subaqua]

whether you like it or not, tippers cause a disproportionate number of deaths. Half of all cycling deaths are caused by construction related traffic. If a group of drivers cause a hugely disproportionate number of deaths, then you look at that group and see what can be done. And there's a lot that can be done............

1. Designers have a duty to assess andminimise risk, and yet they draw schemes that rely on huge quantities of‘muck-away’. They draw underground car parks and retaining without considering what happens to the spoil, and the risk involved in carrying it from a site in London to a gravel pit somewhere outside of London. In this respect they are derelict.There’s a great show of concern about the design of electrical cupboards, roofaccess, and ramps, but none of these are is anywhere near as dangerous as the removal and transport of spoil. Designers should account for their decisions and they should establish that underground works are vital to the project. If,in their wisdom, they decide that works resulting in muck-away are vital to theproject, then it is incumbent on them to insist that the Contractor reduce the risk.

2. Contractors have a duty to assess and minimise risk. Again, there is a great show of concern about helmets, goggles, gloves and safety shoes, and all kinds of precautions whenever a ladder is used, but their attitude to risks off site is that it’s somebody else’s problem. Why, you might ask, are haulage firms found to have hired drivers with prior convictions still in business? Why do Main Contractors not ask for a clean bill of health from haulage subcontracters?

CDM 2007 went a little more towards making designers ( and archirtects ) responsible for what they design . not far enough IMHO though.

The company I work for do ask for a clean bill of health from haulage contractors. but we have had a solid safety policy for a long long time.

unfortunately there are contractors who will try and cut corners and with the pressure on to make building happen cheaper then i fear the numbers will only rise.

 

[dellzeqq]

it's not just contractors and designers. I've been through this with the HSE. It's 'not their problem'.

 

[subaqua]

it's not just contractors and designers. I've been through this with the HSE. It's 'not their problem'.

which is a strange response as the burden of proof is the opposite way round i.e. you are guilty until you can prove you have done everything "reasonably practicable " to prevent the problem. and its that lovely phrase reasonably practicable that causes the problems, but if it were not there then almost everything in the UK would stop overnight.

rock and hard place