Braking hard with rear brake.

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Bazzer

Setting the controls for the heart of the sun.
Actually, come to think of it, one usually only brakes really hard when trying to avoid a sudden obstacle so maybe steering and locking up the back wheel comes into it. If I'm feeling brave, I'll try and lock up the back wheel while going straight down a length of clear tarmac and see what happens. Thanks for the input. Keep it coming

A grass srtrip is likely to be appreciated more by your tyres. ^_^
I think, as as already been said, you will find it is down to friction.
A couple of years ago my daughter and I were on a local open patch of grassland which was wet and covered with mown grass, so the surface was very slippery. - I was trying to use the use surace to help develop her handling skills and if there was a spill, chances of much more than hiurt pride were minimised. :wacko: With the back brake locked, the only way I could keep the backwheel directly behind the front one, was to have my bike travelling dead straight and straight vertically, both before the skid and during it.
 
Location
Loch side.
One would have thought that, if the bike's going in a dead straight line and the rider isn't leaning, that the locked up back wheel would tend to act like a trailed sea anchor does for a boat....that is, keep the bike in a straight line. BTW, I don't use the front brake at all.
A bike very seldom goes straight ahead. Ride through a puddle of water and then onto a dry surface and look at your tracks. It is two ribbons that continually criss-cross each other. The reason for this is the way you balance on a bike. This gets long-winded but I think it will help you understand.

There are two modes of balance on a bike.

Mode 1: When you do a trackstand or ride very slowly. This is the easy one to understand. You simply balance by shifting your weight over the balance point (which is the two contact patches of your wheels) to the required direction in order to avoid falling the other direction. In other words, if you are falling left, you quickly move your body right in order to upset the balance and start falling right. This is continuous and never static like a vase on your mantelpiece.

Mode 2: Balance whilst riding. Here you balance by steering the contact patch into the direction of the fall. This only works above a critical speed and the critical speed is the point where you need Mode 1 to balance. In Mode 2, if you fall to the left, you steer to the left and the contact patch (balance point) moves underneath you towards the direction of falling and again, upsets the imbalance by making you starting to fall towards the other side, where the story continues - you again steer "under" the lean and correct the lean by inducing a fall to the other side. You can simulate this mode of balancing by balancing a broomstick on your hand. This demonstrates the mode nicely albeit in two dimensions rather than only one, like on the bicycle.

Therefore, you are never riding straight ahead but always falling into the lean. I say never, but technically you are riding straight ahead at the exact point when your centre of gravity is exactly below you. This is a moment of flux though and you always move through it, to the other side.

To bring this back to your question then, your back wheel will overtake you because your bike is always steering. Even if you brake and lose grip in the rear tyre, the bike is still steering to keep you upright. However, as soon as the wheel loses grip, it can't track and makes the sudden sideways flick and causes that weird feeling that someone is overtaking you backwards. Micro seconds later you know that the "someone's" bike looks a lot like yours and milliseconds later you are eating asphalt.

To understand how that happens, do this little experiment. Stand next to your bike on a smooth surface like polished concrete or kitchen vinyl. Walk next to the bike (very big kitchen this) by holding onto the saddle and handlebar. Push sideways on the saddle to try and make the bike skid sideways. You'll see this is very difficult or impossible. Friction is at work and the wheel tracks no matter the side force.

Now pull the rear brake, drag the rear wheel and try the test. Suddenly the bike can move sideways. Sliding friction is now at work and this is much less than static friction. The bike can move sideways as easily as forwards.
 
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Location
South East
^^^ What yellow Saddle said!

One interesting point about friction under braking, there is actually an increase in friction between a wheel and a surface when the wheel rotates slower than the rotation speed, at the moment immediately before the wheel stops and begins to skid.
 
Location
Loch side.
Going over the bars doesn't happen like most people think it happens. My pint is slightly academic but nevertheless interesting once you play detective and put the pieces together.
^^^ What yellow Saddle said!

One interesting point about friction under braking, there is actually an increase in friction between a wheel and a surface when the wheel rotates slower than the rotation speed, at the moment immediately before the wheel stops and begins to skid.
This model doesn't hold true for rear bicycle and motorcycle wheels, I'd imagine. This is because a rear wheel skids not so much because it has reached it's limits of adhesion but because the limits of adhesion have been dramatically reduced by the loss of down force on the rear wheel.

A front wheel on these two vehicles can of course not skid on asphalt.
 
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Location
Loch side.
Some people are really good with the front brake, like this guy


and no he wasn't in the process of falling off.

A stoppie is one of those more awesome things humans can do. It may look like a yobbo thing but the skill involved is quite something.

What's happening in that photo is what most people think happened to them when they, as a child, pulled their front brake and they went over the bars. It is not. Our friend Randy (why do the Americans just not get it?) in the photo is braced. In other words, he's balancing on his forearms as if doing a handstand push-up. He is anticipating the motion and bracing against it. What happened to @slowmotion in his youth is different. He wasn't anticipating the sudden slow-down of the bike and he didn't understand intertia as our seat-belt wearers understand it today. He wasn't braced against the slowing down, his elbows crooked and his chest went over the bars whilst the bike was still perfectly horizontal to the ground. Then his bum slid off the seat, going forward perfectly horizontal with the road. His knees then knocked the handlebars which in turn topped the bike over and he made a dive for mother earth. If he can remember, he would remember two handlebar bruises just above his knees. That's proof that his knees hit the bars. Should our friend Randy above topple over, his knees would be intact since they will not meet the bars.

That fateful morning Mrs Slowmotion Snr told her son to never touch the front brake again and since he had the fear of god in him because of that nasty incident, he obeyed. He she been a physicist she would have taught him about interntia and somehow got him to brace when braking and practiced that until it became second nature.

Unfortunately the issue is widely misunderstood and the front brake gets the blame. It is actually the best brake on the bike.
 

raleighnut

Legendary Member
Going over the bars doesn't happen like most people think it happens. My pint is slightly academic but nevertheless interesting once you play detective and put the pieces together.

This model doesn't hold true for rear bicycle and motorcycle wheels, I'd imagine. This is because a rear wheel skids not so much because it has reached it's limits of adhesion but because the limits of adhesion have been dramatically reduced by the loss of down force on the rear wheel.

A front wheel on these two vehicles can of course not skid on asphalt.
Bet Jeremy McWilliams wished his had.
(His brake lever hit the back of the bike that pulled across him)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zEZf5thwTJI
 
Location
Loch side.
Bet Jeremy McWilliams wished his had.
(His brake lever hit the back of the bike that pulled across him)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zEZf5thwTJI

Nice video. At 1:36 into the scene you can see exactly what happened to poor Slowmotion as a lad. If you stop the video there you'll see his knees hit the bars because he slid forwards on the saddle. Now compare that to Randy's picture above where he's clearly braced and not sliding forward on his saddle.
 

jonny jeez

Legendary Member
Anyway, here's my question....when braking hard with the back brake, why does the back wheel start coming up alongside the rider rather than staying in a straight line ?

Thank you.

It doesn't.

What you are describing is skidding not braking.

Come back when you have learnt to brake evenly and not force a skid. :laugh:
 

Simontm

Veteran
Bizarrely had to brake pretty sharpish today when the chain slipped as I was heading down Reigate hill. Was on the drops so arse backwards, legs stiff, front and back brakes squeezed until full stop. Think it helps on modulation as I have discs. Techniques probably all wrong but a hassle-free stop.
 
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