Brompton clones

[Yellow Fang]

I often wondered why other companies did not start copying the Brompton once the patents ran out. It looks like they have. There are at least three brands that look like direct copies: Mobot, Pike (Pikesei) and 3Sixty. Presumably they are all cheaper than Bromptons. I wonder what that means for Brompton long term. Maybe that is why they seem to be concentrating on electric bikes so much. Bromptons are manufactured and put together in London, which is a city with a high cost of living. How much of the cost of a Brompton is due to labour costs? Can they make them cheaper?

 

[rogerzilla]

They use copyright law to go after clones now, even though the shape is dictated by the fold, and the patent on the fold is long expired. China, of course, is a market that takes no notice of copyright.

The hinges (stem and main tube) are supposed to be quite hard to replicate well. There is a lot of room for improvement in the frame: a higher strength chromoly steel and TIG welding would save a lot of weight compared to hi-tensile steel and fillet brazing, although skilled TIG welding wouldn't be much cheaper.

The advantages of a Brompton over clones - for now - are resale value and parts availability. I remember when a Mezzo cost more than a Brompton new, but they are cheap s/h and there is no support now.

 

[berlinonaut]

How much of the cost of a Brompton is due to labour costs? Can they make them cheaper?

Watch this video:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh4yStWFNvs

At about 42:30 there's the information you ask for: About 25% of the direct cost (production cost) of the bike with the assumption to be abele to bring it down to 15% in the same location. The talk was a couple of years ago but still interesting.

 

[rogerzilla]

Watching " Inside The Factory", the fillet brazing is hugely time-consuming, especially for the rear triangle. It's always been the go-to joining technique for odd angles where lugs aren't available, and small production volumes, but Brompton are having to employ a lot of brazers now. Long-term, TIG welding with an air-hardening steel would give a better product but good manual TIG welding is even more highly skilled than fillet brazing, so it wouldn't save any money. TIG welding can be automated but the capital cost is huge. You can have one machine churning out perfectly welded frames 24/7, though. Would prospective Brompton owners care if a robot joined their frame together? I doubt it, since the LWB bikes introduced some automation of the main hinge joint, and it had clear technical advantages.

 

[Yellow Fang]

Watch this video:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh4yStWFNvs

At about 42:30 there's the information you ask for: About 25% of the direct cost (production cost) of the bike with the assumption to be abele to bring it down to 15% in the same location. The talk was a couple of years ago but still interesting.

I have to say, I have often wondered about those clamps. So when Will Butler-Adams says you don't want the bike to snap going down a hill, the clamps suddenly failing is what I think about. I have often wondered what the physics is that stops them coming apart. WBA says a lot of IP is in their manufacturing process and that they have a lot of expensive manufacturing kit, but Andrew Ritchie could not have had that kit when he started, so the basic design must have been sound. WBA's argument that their competitors make Brompton shaped objects, but you don't know how long they will last, well I just don't know about that. I had a Brompton for over fifteen years. At one point the rear triangle corroded through, although Brompton fixed it free of charge. Do modern Bromptons resist corrosion more? They are made of steel. It tends to be the components you need to replace, although they are not the cost of a new Brompton. Over the long term there is a general deterioration. If you work on the bike yourself, you are probably not as skilled or have all the tools a bike mechanic in a bike shop has. The paintwork gets tatty. Anyway, how do we know these far eastern copies of Bromptons have worse made frames than Bromptons? I don't think that's a given at all.

Still, it is interesting to know labour costs accounts for 25% of the price and could possibly be brought down to 15%. If labour costs in Taiwan are 4%, I'd be fairly happy to overlook an 11% difference in price.

 

[rogerzilla]

25% of the cost, not 25% of the price! The cost is, based on the hire scheme replacement charge, about 50% of the price and the rest is profit, shipping, VAT and the retailer's cut.

 

[berlinonaut]

25% of the cost, not 25% of the price! The cost is, based on the hire scheme replacement charge, about 50% of the price and the rest is profit, shipping, VAT and the retailer's cut.

WBA referred to direct cost - the cost of time and material to produce one bike. Apart from the gross margin of Brompton, distribution and dealer you have to add the cost of distribution, marketing, and generic cost of the factory (like i.e. R&D, inventory, location, pension schemes, training, management, human ressources, tooling, holidays, illness, tax advisors, administration, contracting, legal requiremaments, etc.) that cannot be pointed down directly to a single bike. If I rememeber correctly WBA said (maybe even in the same talk) that the materials in one bike add up to around a bit over 300 GBP (I may remember wrong), not including labor and other direct and indirect cost.

 

[berlinonaut]

Still, it is interesting to know labour costs accounts for 25% of the price and could possibly be brought down to 15%. If labour costs in Taiwan are 4%, I'd be fairly happy to overlook an 11% difference in price.

As @rogerzilla said: This is a totally wrong understanding - a milkmaids calculation as we would say in Germany. And as this kind of misunderstanding is pretty common no wonder that barely any producer talks publicly about his cost... The point that WBA tried to make is that with going to i.e. Taiwan a short term effect on labor cost would happen but neither a dramatic one regarding the end price nor a sustainable one. Plus it would have a price, possibly in terms of quality, definitively in terms of overhead and complexity of the organisation. Brompton tried something like that in the early 90ies with Neobike and that resulted in somwhat cheaper but lower quality bikes and in the clones we see today on the market. So possibly not much to win but a lot to loose for Brompton. The sales price is a somwhat indirect derivation of the cost but also influenced by the competition and a lot of other things. Realistically you should find out what value a Brompton delivers to you (typically it is well worth the price quickly regarding that if you really use it) and if there are cheaper alternatives that are fit for purpose in the same way. The latter obviously depends from your needs but it a small fold, longterm quality and good spare parts situation are on your list you may not find too many valid alternatives.

BTW: The talk was five years ago and the factory has scaled up since then. So I'd assume they managed to bring down the direct labor cost already at least a bit (which you can see from the publicly available balance sheet). The move to the new factory a couple of years ago brought them a rise in efficiency.

 

[rogerzilla]

I do wonder if the longevity of the things (largely due to the price, they get looked after better than most bikes) means they'll reach a saturation point in the UK. I suppose the older ones will go overseas, like the way old British cars used to end up in Malta.

 

[Yellow Fang]

As @rogerzilla said: This is a totally wrong understanding - a milkmaids calculation as we would say in Germany. And as this kind of misunderstanding is pretty common no wonder that barely any producer talks publicly about his cost... The point that WBA tried to make is that with going to i.e. Taiwan a short term effect on labor cost would happen but neither a dramatic one regarding the end price nor a sustainable one. Plus it would have a price, possibly in terms of quality, definitively in terms of overhead and complexity of the organisation. Brompton tried something like that in the early 90ies with Neobike and that resulted in somwhat cheaper but lower quality bikes and in the clones we see today on the market. So possibly not much to win but a lot to loose for Brompton. The sales price is a somwhat indirect derivation of the cost but also influenced by the competition and a lot of other things. Realistically you should find out what value a Brompton delivers to you (typically it is well worth the price quickly regarding that if you really use it) and if there are cheaper alternatives that are fit for purpose in the same way. The latter obviously depends from your needs but it a small fold, longterm quality and good spare parts situation are on your list you may not find too many valid alternatives.

BTW: The talk was five years ago and the factory has scaled up since then. So I'd assume they managed to bring down the direct labor cost already at least a bit (which you can see from the publicly available balance sheet). The move to the new factory a couple of years ago brought them a rise in efficiency.

Excuse me for not realising I had to divide the labour cost percentage by the ratio of the retail price over the cost of manufacture, which WBA does not state. What I wanted to know is are the Brompton clones much cheaper, and if so, is that because labour is so much cheaper to hire out there, including take home pay, sick pay, pension, annual leave, death in service, taxes, performance bonuses, Christmas party, and all the other outgoings associated with employing staff. Is the difference in the labour manufacturing costs, as reflected in the retail price, large or small?

 

[rogerzilla]

They are also closer to where they can get the components manufactured (I think they use the Taiwanese SA hubs, although the BWR may be made exclusively for Brompton, in which case they are limited to a 3-speed, the SRF3 being the same as the BSR hub) and, given the size of the Chinese market, can probably buy components cheaper than Brompton can, with far lower shipping costs. There will also be bigger economies of scale when you are dealing with an internal market of over a billion people. This is even if they don't cheap out on the quality of materials, which is sadly pretty normal for mainland Chinese manufacturing.

I doubt you'll see any for sale through official channels over here, or have you? Brompton's lawyers would be all over them like a rash. You can get away with anything in the Chinese domestic market: https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/87772/chinese-copycat-cars-how-do-they-get-away-with-it

 

[Yellow Fang]

Don't know how you go about buying them, but the website is in English. You probably start by phoning the number.
http://www.3sixtybike.com/category/bikes/folding-bikes/

 

[Yellow Fang]

You can get Pikes/Paikesi Brompton clones in Singapore, which I thought was a country that was pretty hot on commercial law. I don't know how you would get one here. They look like they cost about half price.
https://www.lazada.sg/products/pike...list.1.2b5a40aeDgEG5M&search=1&freeshipping=1

 

[Yellow Fang]

And the Mobot Royale. Looks like you'd have to pay shipping costs plus duties and taxes, but it still looks like a big saving. I don't reckon Brompton are selling many bikes in the far east.

https://mobot.sg/shop/bicycle-bike/royale-foldable-bicycle/#1513763539798-d769020b-a0c0

 

[FrankCrank]

Here's another for your perusal:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...exp_id=726a3da5-0b73-435f-8951-f0e70c2af97f-7

Think these come re-badged under various names, all from the same factory I expect, over in that there China.

Personally, I'm not in the market for a Brommie or a clone, but maybe a folder from Decathlon could be on my letter to Santa this year. They cost less than half the UK price, so quite a bargain really. Brommies go for eye watering prices here, so not surprised the clones are popping up. Would be interesting to see a shootout of the real McCoy verses the imposter.