Brompton M to S bars

[mitchibob]

That's true for the UK but not necessarily for other parts of the world. When they invented this policy a couple of years ago Brompton said (as to my memory) they wanted to get rid of the armada of malmechaniced Bromptons in the UK. Does this say something about British home bike mechanics?

Perhaps more on how they view their average customer? It really is a shame they wont sell certain parts to individuals and local bike shops (some with Brommie fanatical mechanics) that may or may not have the skills to do certain repairs and replacements themselves. I understand to a certain extent, but I still think it's a shame.

Also, running an annual racing series, but not endorsing any of the 3rd party mods, or even talking about them at all, or other cool personalisations you see at these events, It just seems a little counter community. Just push the vastly expensive 3rd party luggage instead. I wonder how many completely stock Brommies have won Brompton World Championship finals?

Saying that, it was the Alfine hub-gear that failed around 1000km in for a Brommie Transcontinental Race attempt. The standard 6-speed has gone a LONG way past that without any issues.

 

[Gunk]

Also, running an annual racing series, but not endorsing any of the 3rd party mods, or even talking about them at all, or other cool personalisations you see at these events, It just seems a little counter community. Just push the vastly expensive 3rd party luggage instead. I wonder how many completely stock Brommies have won Brompton World Championship finals?

I find Brompton’s attitude towards customisation and personalisation very strange, if an owner spends thousands improving your product surely you would be flattered and embrace the ingenuity and take some notice.

Companies like Kinetics in Glasgow have managed to take the Brompton to another level and do the sort of stuff that Brompton should be doing themselves, rather than just producing more overpriced limited editions which are a pick and mix out of the accessories catalogue, I suppose profit comes before proper R&D on a product which is already a big seller as it is.

 

[12boy]

I could suggest a bunch of Brompton mods, including cartridge bearing hinges for the rear triangle, or if not possible, something more DIY than the current bushings, Vbrakes , chrome moly forks, rear triangle and frame, threadless handle bar post and room for tires up to 50 mm, but I've certainly enjoyed the many hours spent on messing with handlebar and gear train mods. While I would like those kind of changes I certainly enjoy the bike I have.

 

[rogerzilla]

If you look at the original series Brompton on eBay, which has its own thread, what's remarkable is how little things have moved on in 40 years. It's a cash cow.

 

[berlinonaut]

I find Brompton’s attitude towards customisation and personalisation very strange, if an owner spends thousands improving your product surely you would be flattered and embrace the ingenuity and take some notice.

Just that in the end it is a different product than Brompton offer - they are in the business of urban transport for the masses and surely no one needs to spend thousands on top of a Brompton to achieve that (and only a tiny fraction is willing to that).

Companies like Kinetics in Glasgow have managed to take the Brompton to another level and do the sort of stuff that Brompton should be doing themselves,

Maybe in your opinion but I guess it is totally up to Brompton's owners and management what they do or what they don't do. They have been very successful with what they have been doing and how they did it over the last decade, so not so much to complain. Plus it is one thing if you build by hand a couple of one-off Bromptons a year north of 3k as a one man band and a completely different story if you produce 50.000 bikes a year with 200-something staff.

rather than just producing more overpriced limited editions which are a pick and mix out of the accessories catalogue,

This an often heard claim but still as wrong as it has always been. If you look at the special editions and calculate the usual prices of the accessories the edition comes with you'll find out that they are not a penny more expensive than their standard silblings if you would add the same accessories. They are no doubt cash-cows to a degree as they foster demand due to being limited but they are not overpriced.

I suppose profit comes before proper R&D on a product which is already a big seller as it is.

I'd agree that Brompton has become less of an engineering company as it used to be and more of a marketing and sales driven company. On the other hand that's good in a way as they have built up marketshare and financial momentum to be able to invest. Still they are a relatively small company staffwise and do R&D as well as continuous improvement each year. The profit is there but - if you look at their numbers - within a normal range. Plus: If the bike sells good enough why should they change it massively and endanger their sales and their profit? Btw: A couple of months ago I and other Brompton riders received an invitation to a questionaire by mail asking what we would like to have changed or enhanced on the Brompton. I guess it went to people that registered their bikes with Brompton or such - but maybe the request ended up in the spam-folder (it did with me and I only found it after someone else mentioned it).

 

[berlinonaut]

If you look at the original series Brompton on eBay, which has its own thread, what's remarkable is how little things have moved on in 40 years.

I'd rather say this shows how brilliant the initial concept already was. Regarding changes over the years Id recommend to look a bit closer. The Mk2 of 1987 and a today's Brompton do share exactly two parts: The axle and pivot of the rear hinge and the little plastic thingy that is on the stem. Every other part has changed, many more than once. With the MK1 I'd assume there is not a single bolt that would be identical.

Following your argument you could also state that the bicycle as such lacks innovation as most today's bikes look surprisingly similar to the so called "safety-bikes" of the 1890ies when the diamond frame was invented and started to take the marketshare off the penny-farthing.

A "recent" gravel-bike race - in the 1890ies. (picked from this brilliant picture-archives: https://wsjcc.co.uk/about-us/club-archives/)

It's a cash cow.

What's wrong about that? Would it be better if Brompton were strugelling and starving?

 

[Hertz]

I have M3L 2013. Want to convert to S1L. Never done bike mechanics before. By reading all your comments my lips went under my teeth. I thought it could be easy but seems not easy. I bought S bar already. So will give it a try. Not sure how to change 3 gears to one gear🤔. Or maybe it’s not possible to one gear?

 

[mitchibob]

I have M3L 2013. Want to convert to S1L. Never done bike mechanics before. By reading all your comments my lips went under my teeth. I thought it could be easy but seems not easy. I bought S bar already. So will give it a try. Not sure how to change 3 gears to one gear🤔. Or maybe it’s not possible to one gear?

Think you should be OK... you can get away without shortening cables initially, although they'll be a little too long, but if they haven't been replaced in a while, wont hurt to get some new brake cables at the correct length at the same time.

Changing 3 gears to 1? Surely just a new rear wheel and removing the gear cable?

 

[ExBrit]

That’s crazy, it’s a 5 minute job to fit.

Rubbish - it took me at least 10 minutes
Seriously, it's a trivial task and I'm still seeing plenty of S bars for sale on various sites.

 

[rogerzilla]

My mate wants to do this conversion but has decided to just buy an S and sell the M. It's easier.

 

[berlinonaut]

Seriously, it's a trivial task and I'm still seeing plenty of S bars for sale on various sites.

True if you stick with the M stem and happy ending with up way lower bars than a normal S-Brompton. I'd only recommend this for very short people. And even if you want to go that low for many the P-stem would be a better choice as (like the S-stem) it offers more reach. If you want the height of an S normally one would switch to an S-stem with S bars or start fiddeling around with alternative bars on the M-stem where the Kusoac mid riser may be the easiest bet.

 

[12boy]

A solution offered by Perennial cycles is a mtn bike stylebar with an few inches of rise. No spendier than any other bar. Another option is an Aber Hallo extension which can raise the bar and/or give an extension of a few inches.

 

[berlinonaut]

A solution offered by Perennial cycles is a mtn bike stylebar with an few inches of rise. No spendier than any other bar. Another option is an Aber Hallo extension which can raise the bar and/or give an extension of a few inches.

I think the Perennial solution is (or was initially) intended for S-stems as for many people the S stem turned out to be too low. You can go up up to 10cm with the bars on an S-stem (and would then be level with M) but finding riser bars that would do that and not request more width (so leaving enough space for the grips and levers when cut down to ~52cm) were hard to find. This is where Perennial kicked in.
The Aber Hallo is indeed another option - but you'd still end up lower than S and on top of that pay a price in terms of optics, weight and mechanical complexity.

 

[Kell]

This is quite an old thread, but going down in height will not cause you any issues with cabling in terms of either gears or brakes not working. It will just be quite messy to have too much cable flapping around.

I reduced the height of my bike (from an H-type) by swapping the riser bars to some mid-risers I had lying around. Ran it like that to see if I liked it for a good couple of months before getting around to shortening the cables. Didn't encounter any problems with shifting or braking.

However, as others have stated (for the benefit of anyone reading the thread late) is that while all Bromptons appear to look the same to the untrained eye, it's not as simple as just swapping handlebars out as the stems are different. I've not yet come across a diagram that shows each of the stem heights, but if you know the rise of the bars, I guess you can work backwards to find out.

 

[berlinonaut]

I've not yet come across a diagram that shows each of the stem heights, but if you know the rise of the bars, I guess you can work backwards to find out.

Speaking of the models before 2017 basically M + P do have the same stem height (not counting in the bars) as do S + H. P + S do have more of an forward angle in comparison to M + H and thus more reach. The H does have the folding hinge 3 cms higher than the other stems, thus allowing more overall height (including bars). The H stem is 6 cm higher than M and does have a total height (top of the headset to top of the bars at the clmping areaa) of ~37,5cm.
For 2018 Brompton changed stem and bars on M + H; the stems got slightly higher, the bars slightly lower to maintain the same overall height. The new H-stem has in total about ~40,5cm (again top of the headset to top of the bars), so a 3 cm difference to its older sibling. The same ~3cm got added to the M, too, while S + P stayed as before (and P vanished from the lineup completely about two years later).

As a consequence these are the about heights of the different stems (not bars):
M (before 2018): 31,5 cm
P: 31,5 cm
M (after 2018): 34,5 cm
S: 37,5 cm
H (before 2018): 37,5 cm
H after 2018: 40,5 cm

For the T-line the world is different again: There are only a M and a S model available - however: Both are using the same stem. So only one type of stem avail. on the T-Line. Did not measure it's height until now as I forgot to do it when I had one in my hands a while ago.