Cadence, Speed and hill climbing.

[LegsRsore]

Good question

 

[black'n'yellow]

so what woud u say is the best approach to climbing ,im more of a grinder and i really struggle to get spinning as high as some people have mentioned here ,when i spin (relative term )i really feel that im getting nowhere ,id say my fitness is pretty rubbish,but im pretty strong in the legs (maybe this is the prob )i squat a bit but seem to run out of puff on the bike .
iv tried to go out and increase my cadence and not use the longer gears ,that lasts for a mile or so when i realise that im getting nowhere about 10 mph and revert to getting out the saddle and horsing (relativly)a bigger gear ,
whats the best approach ,not only on hills but even on the flat ?get the cadence up?

Other than finding a cadence you are comfortable riding at, your actual cadence is largely irrelevant - so please don't worry about it in the context of hill climbing.

The two factors which have the most impact on your climbing ability are 1) your sustainable power output and 2) your body weight.

Lose body weight and your power/weight ratio will effectively improve. Train your cardio vascular system to tolerate prolonged efforts either in or out of the saddle (ideally both) and your sustainable power output will improve.

 

[marzjennings]

I'm beginning to lose count of the number of time I've said this, but if the OP can climb stairs or get up out of a chair unaided, then he already has all the leg strength he needs to cycle - as do you or I. The trick is converting that existing strength into a repeated aerobic effort - which comes through training.

Muscles don't tire because they are not strong enough - they tire because they are not used to performing at whatever effort you are requiring them to perform at, or for the length of time you are requiring them to perform for.

Yes, I saw you write that before and you were wrong then too. Repeating an opinion doesn't magically make it a fact.

The OP may have enough strength to climb some stairs, that doesn't mean he has enough leg strength to travel up hill as fast as he wants.

I'm sure Hoy and the like only build up their leg strength to look good and nothing to do with going faster. And I bet even skinny old Wiggins himself is carrying a lot more muscle mass on his legs than he needs to just climb some stairs.

 

[Rob3rt]

Yes, I saw you write that before and you were wrong then too. Repeating an opinion doesn't magically make it a fact.

The OP may have enough strength to climb some stairs, that doesn't mean he has enough leg strength to travel up hill as fast as he wants.

I'm sure Hoy and the like only build up their leg strength to look good and nothing to do with going faster. And I bet even skinny old Wiggins himself is carrying a lot more muscle mass on his legs than he needs to just climb some stairs.

I wish people would stop referring to Chris Hoy and other track sprinters as examples in this context.

 

[black'n'yellow]

Yes, I saw you write that before and you were wrong then too. Repeating an opinion doesn't magically make it a fact.

The OP may have enough strength to climb some stairs, that doesn't mean he has enough leg strength to travel up hill as fast as he wants.

I'm sure Hoy and the like only build up their leg strength to look good and nothing to do with going faster. And I bet even skinny old Wiggins himself is carrying a lot more muscle mass on his legs than he needs to just climb some stairs.

Epic failure, on so many levels. Only an idiot would compare Hoy to Wiggins. I'm not sure I can even be bothered to put you straight, but here goes...

Hoy is a track sprinter. The sprint is a discipline which relies on maximal/anaerobic effort for a short period. Wiggins is an endurance cyclist who relies on submaximal/aerobic performance to get him up mountains and to the end of time trials. I'm willing to bet a fiver that there are many people here (possibly even you) that could squat more than Wiggins could. Does that make you a better rider than him..? No, of course it doesn't. Why do you think that is?

Now for the strength thing. You are confusing strength with power. Open up another tab, google both definitions, make sure you've understood them and then read on. If you can climb stairs, then you already have the strength needed to lift/propel your entire body weight, one leg at a time. Do you think this would be less, or more than the strength you would need to put through the pedals when you are climbing hills? I'll give you a clue - it's significantly more than you would need. Ergo - your leg strength is already sufficient. You may indeed already have more leg strength than Wiggins - but are you a better climber? Unlikely, I would suspect.

What Wiggins will have is a better power output and a better power/weight ratio than you - in other words, he can convert his 'stair climbing leg strength' more efficiently into repeated, sub-maximal aerobic efforts - otherwise known as power output. Or to put it another way, you may both have the same leg strength, but he could still be walking up the stairway in the Empire State Building towards the 102nd floor, while you are already knackered from climbing the steps up to the entrance. One of the principal reasons for that is that you probably don't ride 30+ hours per week training in the off season developing this aerobic base.

All of the above is generally understood by anyone with an interest in aerobic exercise. So don't tell me I'm wrong please - that is extraordinarily ignorant of you.

Below is a quote from a qualified coach and sports scientist that I lifted from another forum. I've highlighted some bits to help you understand. If you want to tell him he is wrong then I will be glad to give you his details:

I'm for doing training that is specifically going to aid cycling performance. The type and nature of events that you are targeting will dictate whether specific strength work done with weights makes sense or not.

For example, I would have some riders focussed on track TT & sprint do weights. Even then the nature of the weights performed and balance with bike training needs to be considered. Many are actually better off not doing weights at and focussing their sprint work on the bike.

Problem is, the physiological adaptations induced by real strength/weights work run counter to those required to improve endurance cycling performance (ECP). e.g.
- it adds mass for no gain in aerobic power output,
- increases diffusion distance for exchange of key metabolites and gases at the cellular level,
- reduces mitochondrial volume (mitochondria are the power production houses inside our muscle cells) and
- does not stimulate capillary growth/density (critical for supplying the working muscles with O2),
i.e. runs counter to all things necessary to improve sustainable power.

There is a low correlation between strength, speed and endurance.

Finally, the pedal/crank forces in ECP are very low (typically nearly an order of magnitude less than our maximal force generation capacity), such that our (maximal) strength* is not a limiter. If you can walk up stairs or get up from your chair, you are strong enough to ride a bike up Alpe d'Huez..

By all means do weights for other reasons but a claim they aid ECP doesn't stack up.

Nevertheless, some exercise is better than none. And any exercise for an untrained person will aid performance. But typically we are talking about people who are already reasonably (cycling) trained to some degree.

For those that can't ride, then anything that engages a large muscle mass in an aerobically meaningful manner is preferred. Walking, jogging, running, stairs, elliptical machine (my pick), rowing machines X-C skiing etc etc

Next week: Marz Jennings will argue that black is actually white.

 

[marzjennings]

I wish people would stop referring to Chris Hoy and other track sprinters as examples in this context.

That's why I added Wiggins too.

 

[black'n'yellow]

That's why I added Wiggins too.

Wiggins is hardly the best example of a rider carrying 'muscle mass' (as you put it) though is he..? I think I'm carrying more muscle mass than he is...

 

[Nigelnaturist]

For the record I did a ride last wk over 30km with a 25ft per mile avg climb at 22.9km/h with a cadence of 83avg, yesterday I did a 50km ride @ 25.8Km/h over the same elevation gain, with a cadence of 89avg. I know they are not great speeds, but to me they are a quite an improvement on two months ago when I started I did 47.89km @ 15.77Km/h though that did have a climb rate of slightly more at 30.5ft per mile. I don't know the cadence for that ride, plus I had several stops which I didn't last night.

 

[marzjennings]

Wrote a lot of bs.

To which I may try and reply to.

I didn't compare Hoy to Wiggins, but mentioned them as two independent examples of cyclists who will be carrying more muscle mass on their legs than is required to just climb a set of stairs. Sorry you failed to comprehend that.

I'm not sure how bench pressing helps cycling, but I have read than many cyclists use weights to increase leg strength. Even Wiggins has been known to do weighted lunges in the gym. I used to hit the gym a lot, but found I was spending a lot of time reconditioning new muscle mass to meet my cycling needs, whereas, and as your quoted section states, I could have met my strength goals through different training routines on the bike.

I do agree that the key to climbing is maximizing one's power to weight ratio and why the watt/kg and Wiggins are king in this. We have to trade how much leg strength we need compared to the type of cycling we like to do. The speed, duration, distance, climbing, etc. But cyclist's often push more power through a single pedal stroke than is required to lift their own body mass or climb a single stair step. For example during sprints and short climbs. And why you need more strength than just standing from chair.

The OP seems to have ran out of gears to climb as fast as they would like, and I still surmise that they need to work on there leg strength to give them that extra speed.

The coach you quoted isn't wrong and even recommends that to build length strength one should do more sprint work on the bike. And he may be right about endurance riding, but I don't ride endurance events (my longest race this year will be 100 miles) and can therefore carry more muscle mass and I don't have to sacrifice power when I need it.

But to state that stair climbing strength is sufficient is to climb the Alpe d'Huez is an over simplification and wrong.

 

[black'n'yellow]

The coach you quoted isn't wrong and even recommends that to build length strength one should do more sprint work on the bike.

for anaerobic sprint work in track events - did you miss that bit?

And he may be right about endurance riding, but I don't ride endurance events (my longest race this year will be 100 miles) and can therefore carry more muscle mass and I don't have to sacrifice power when I need it.

Hello? You DO ride endurance events. Any distance which requires aerobic effort (as opposed to anaerobic) IS an endurance event. A mile-long race is an endurance event. Look it up.

But to state that stair climbing strength is sufficient is to climb the Alpe d'Huez is an over simplification and wrong.

You are either unable to understand what I and others have written - or you are deliberately ignoring it in order to perpetuate your baseless argument that leg strength is an issue in endurance cycling. I'm guessing the former, seeing as you didn't even know what 'endurance' meant. Remember, you are not arguing against me - you are arguing against accepted practice, conventional wisdom and sports science. Why are you even arguing this stuff when you are obviously clueless? The fact that you have the nerve to flippantly dismiss my previous post as 'BS' just shows how ignorant you must be.

 

[marzjennings]

for anaerobic sprint work in track events - did you miss that bit?
Hello? You DO ride endurance events. Any distance which requires aerobic effort (as opposed to anaerobic) IS an endurance event. A mile-long race is an endurance event. Look it up.
You are either unable to understand what I and others have written - or you are deliberately ignoring it in order to perpetuate your baseless argument that leg strength is an issue in endurance cycling. I'm guessing the former, seeing as you didn't even know what 'endurance' meant. Remember, you are not arguing against me - you are arguing against accepted practice, conventional wisdom and sports science. Why are you even arguing this stuff when you are obviously clueless? The fact that you have the nerve to flippantly dismiss my previous post as 'BS' just shows how ignorant you must be.

No I didn't miss that, and again there are many times in a ride we switch from aerobic to anaerobic effort to get though a section. Sometimes, for the type of riding I like, I just have to muscle through and to do that I need muscle.

And for some a mile could be considered a sprint and over that distance which 'shape' of cyclist is going to perform better. The large legged rider or the skinny?

There is no accepted practice or conventional wisdom in this space, there are two sides to an argument that's been going on for years. Maybe you tend towards the Ric Stern way of thinking, and I maybe the Joe Friel and James Wilson way of training. If you want to start posting competing quotes we could do that all day.

The OP was not asking about tips for endurance riding, but some ideas about improving their climbing. And I still suggest improving leg strength will help.

Endurance riding, as you know, is a trade off between mass and leg strength and finding that optimal watt/kg ratio is tough. There is a point at which additional muscle weight is not going to help the endurance cyclist. But from what I've read and seen, you still require more leg strength than just stair climbing power if you want to ride faster than the minimum speed required to get from A to B. And again the OP wasn't asking about just making a climb, but going faster on a given climb. More power over a fixed distance to get a shorter time. Their options are either spin faster, find a lower gear or as I propose, switch to a high gear and push harder. And to push harder you need more leg strength.

 

[black'n'yellow]

The OP was not asking about tips for endurance riding, but some ideas about improving their climbing. And I still suggest improving leg strength will help.

Unless he meant climbing anaerobically (ie sprinting the whole way at a maximal effort), then we are talking ENDURANCE riding. Try saying the word out loud yourself - it may help your understanding.

Endurance riding, as you know, is a trade off between mass and leg strength.

No! Endurance riding is about sustaining a given power output over a given distance. Endurance riding has NOTHING to do with leg strength. Leg strength is not a limiter to endurance riding. Show me some evidence to the contrary.

And to push harder you need more leg strength.

Ohhhh - once again, you've not grasped it. To push harder, you need to be able to tolerate a higher effort. This does NOT mean 'stronger' legs (incidentally, did you actually look up the dictionary definitions of 'strength' and 'power'? It doesn't sound like you did)- it means training your body to produce more sustainable power. Strength is not a limiter. Sustainable power is.

You are clearly still struggling with the basic definitions of endurance, strength and power. Which probably explains why you are still not getting it.

 

[T.M.H.N.E.T]

You're arguing with someone who is always going to be right (in his head only) and has no understanding of anything really.

Just FYI

 

[ayceejay]

I should probably stay out of this but...
'Fitness' is the combination of strength, flexibility and stamina (endurance).
What this means is that anyone with the strength to climb stairs could ride a bike up Alpe d'Huez, eventually. If you want to do it quicker or more comfortably then it is stamina and flexibility that needs work and while working on these your strength will increase too. Working on strength only will not cut it.
The only way I know of to increase your performance on hills is to ride hills, interval training seems to work.
Flexibility will help prevent your shoulders or back from ruining your plans.

 

[black'n'yellow]

You're arguing with someone who is always going to be right (in his head only) and has no understanding of anything really.

Just FYI

thak christ for that - I was beginning to think it was me...

What this means is that anyone with the strength to climb stairs could ride a bike up Alpe d'Huez, eventually.

agreed, but the point is that strength is not the limiting factor - fitness/sustainable power is...