Can we talk about running?

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OP
OP
xxmimixx

xxmimixx

Senior Member
Hi, no not yet, the pain is easing and have not been running yet. Just doing a lot of swimming at the moment. I MUST get my trainers on soon though!
Hi Ghost, yes I have read a lot of benefits about 'barefoot' running but not sure whether is for me. I suffered a slipped disk a few years ago and I think I benefit from cushioning until I improve on my core
 
Hi Ghost, yes I have read a lot of benefits about 'barefoot' running but not sure whether is for me.

I'm not sure whether it's for me either :thumbsup:. I've generally gone for a different technique foot strike with lighter padded trainers. If I'd have read the previous posts properly I'd ave seen the bits about your injuries and certainly wouldn't recommend anything radical while you're recovering. Good luck with getting back to running. If you can enjoy it again it's always more fun.:smile:
 

loops

New Member
Location
Sheffield
Hi, no not yet, the pain is easing and have not been running yet. Just doing a lot of swimming at the moment. I MUST get my trainers on soon though!
Hi Ghost, yes I have read a lot of benefits about 'barefoot' running but not sure whether is for me. I suffered a slipped disk a few years ago and I think I benefit from cushioning until I improve on my core

Hi, I had a prolapsed disk just over 2 years ago and have had to be careful with running, in particular I have found running downhill can trigger back pain - though this may be my poor form due to inexperience, I am also interested in changing technique but couldn't bear being out of action for so long again.
 

pubrunner

Legendary Member
I have benefited massively from a change in technique to mid/forefoot running. The easiest way I did this was to buy some racing flats. I previously ran badly with a lot of vertical movement and hit the ground hard. Despite very good padded trainers I could only run once or twice a week. More than that, no matter how slowly I built up, I suffered from shin splints and quad fatigue to the point of having to stop running. When i researched technique I found most of the "systems" such as Chi running, Pose, Revolution Running all promoted a mid/forefoot technique.

My experiences pretty much, match the statement above.

I've been running at various levels for nearly 30 years; I've done over a dozen marathons and numerous half marathons, 10Ks etc. Over the years, I've found that well-cushioned trainers don't work for me; I seemed to get too many injuries. Likewise, I've found that 'gimmicky' (usually expensive) shoes with 'special' features are a waste of money. 'Motion control' etc., or any 'control', simply isn't required - other than by those (few) runners who do have bio-mechanical problems.

The best shoes in my experience, are those with a minimal midsole & sole and enable the runner to run in a style which is close to bare foot running. If you look at the running style of a child aged about 10, they land on the mid/forefoot. That is the natural style that we should use and running in tall, highly-cushioned shoes does not assist in following that style.

I do as much running off-road as possible; if I'm doing a run of 10 - 20 miles, my 'cushioned' (such as there is) shoes are usually a pair of Walsh's - the tread is so worn, that they are fine on tarmac. If I'm doing a shorter run on the road, I just use a pair of beach/aqua shoes such as these :-

http://www.boardshop.co.uk/product/csolm-grbk.asp
or these :
http://www.ifsogo.com/Holiday/aquashoes_all/basic-aquashoe-Royal.html

Such shoes as these, 'force' me to run on my mid/forefoot; I'd like to do barefoot running, but the soles on these shoes provide a good degree of protection against flints/thorns etc., yet enable a much easier running style than I've ever experienced in cushioned shoes. I looked at Vibam fivefingers shoes, but these do the same thing (in my experience) at a fraction of the price. I recommend such shoes for running, but they need to be introduced into a training regime, very cautiously . . .and where possible, use off-road.

Unless you are training for marathon distance, I'd recommend training off-road as much as possible - with hills !

Tabata sessions provide an excellent and intensive training method, that would be ideal for a triathlete. (I'd be aiming for quality sessions, rather than 'junk mileage'). The session described in the article, refers to cycling; many people also use the same session, but for running.

http://www.active.com/triathlon/Articles/Go-for-Broke-with-Tabata-Intervals.htm

You might consider the points made in the article below :

http://www.theiflife.com/barefoot-running-injuries/

In addition to wearing flat shoes fo running, I've pretty much 'given up' wearing work shoes with a heels. Previously, I used to wear shoes like these for work :

http://www.arthurknightshoes.co.uk/...f-leather-mens-formal-lace-up-shoes-by-exceed

I now wear these :

http://www.chiarafashion.co.uk/Black-Lace-Up-Plimsolls-Pumps.html

Of course, I wear 'smart' shoes when required, but the lace-up plimsolls are very comfortable and my feet and ankles feel much better since I've been wearing them. Since I've moved over to such (minimalist) shoes for running and work, I've not had a single injury for a few years. Of course, what 'works' for one runner, doesn't always work for another, but they've been fine for me.
 

Flying_Monkey

Recyclist
Location
Odawa
I should also point out that it doesn't work for everyone. I ended up with broken bones in my foot when I tried to switch to a more forefoot style (using all the advice etc.). Turns our my naturally mid-foot gait was working for me and is not damaging. So see a specialist and get your gait assessed if you are a serious runner and want to make changes. Don't take advice from people on Internet forums at face value, even well-meaning ones who really have had great experiences doing what they did...
 

pubrunner

Legendary Member
So see a specialist and get your gait assessed if you are a serious runner and want to make changes.

I'd be cautious about seeing a gait specialist. Gait analysis might have some value for an experienced runner with an 'established' running style. However, if your gait is analysed, how can you be sure that it typifies your running style ?

There is considerable variation between proper gaits for different people; Paula Radcliffe does not have a good running style, but it is effective. Gait analysis might cause you grief by trying to 'force' on you a running gait that's not natural for your running body. Looking at the wear patterns on your shoes, will tell a great deal about your running style.

It is worth remembering that ideal gait varies with speed and terrain. You'll have one for your 'easy' pace, a different one for race pace and an economical one (when 'forced' by fatigue). Furthermore, your gait will vary, according to whether you are running barefoot or shod - and the style/type of shoes. Consider the comments of others on this very thread; some have found that merely changing the type of footwear, has made big differences in their style (gait) of running.

In some runners, the leg position and foot position are identical in barefoot and shod running. However, the wedge shape of the padding on cushioned shoes, tends to move the point of impact back from the forefoot to the midfoot. The padding of the heel softens the impact, thus resulting in the runner modifying their gait to contact further back in the foot.

In my experience, there is correlation between foot-landing style and exposure to shoes. Some 'experts' have hypothesized that the impact of heel strikes is a cause of the high rates of repetitive stress injuries in shod runners - but they may just be trying to encourage runners to buy Vibram Fivefingers or other 'natural' (expensive) shoes.

A gait analysis is only as good as the person who is giving the analysis and the person's ability to correlate that analysis to a running shoe based on it's objective ability to control torsional forces that occur during the weight bearing phase of gait. In short, gait analysis is worthless, if you don't know the torsional or vertical support of a spectrum of shoes. Anyone who is tested barefoot, will strike with a neutral midfoot - unless there is something 'mechanically' wrong. Well. you may heel strike for a few steps, but will adjust very quickly after that.

Gait analysis is pointless for off-road running, as the surface isn't consistent - so train off-road.

IMO, man was not born to run on flat tarmac & concrete. The best distance runners {Kenyans/Ethiopians etc.} frequently don't wear running shoes for training and train on a variety of surfaces.

Oh yes, don't go for gait analysis whilst injured, you'll possibly be over-compensating and not running with your 'true' gait.
 

Flying_Monkey

Recyclist
Location
Odawa
Look, I'm sympathetic to your general position, but having been running for a long time myself I know better than to try to give the kind of depth of advice you are giving here - as a non-specialist.
 

pubrunner

Legendary Member
I have read a lot of benefits about 'barefoot' running but not sure whether is for me.
'Barefoot' running should only be introduced, in short distances - no more than a few hundred yards at a time - and only on a soft, forgiving surface. The surface needs to be one on which you can run fully relaxed - without the concern of stepping on thorns etc..
 

pubrunner

Legendary Member
I should also point out that it doesn't work for everyone.

Obviously, not of Tarahumaran or Kenya ancestry.
 

Trevrev

Veteran
Location
Southampton
I've got shin splints in my right leg at the moment. I'm not a huge runner, just do it for fitness and i enjoy it. I usually do 5k every other day if i can, then i thought it would be a good idea to double it to 10k. I think thats where my troubles came from....!!! Too much too soon i think.
Managed a week of 10s before the pain kicked in....Now resting. Which is a pain in itself as i feel guilty for not running.
Hope i don't get them back again.
 

pubrunner

Legendary Member

Trevrev

Veteran
Location
Southampton
I've known a few runners who have had shin splints - I had them myself when I started running. You could consider using something like Tuli's heel cups - to be used in all footwear.

http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?hl=en&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4PRFB_enGB449GB461&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&ion=1&biw=1280&bih=563&wrapid=tlif132335062277210&surl=1&safe=active&q=tulis heel cups&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=9331844584315130843&sa=X&ei=ZrrgTvr7Bcuq8AO_lMj9BA&ved=0CGgQ8wIwAQ#

I strongly recommend building up your distance very slowly - and where possible, run off-road - you'll find it to be much more forgiving.

I'm not sure these inserts will help much as i land mid foot. Although i find your topics on footwear interesting.
I'm currently wearing Brooks adrenaline gts 11. As i'm an overpronator.
I purchased these from a running shop that was recommended to me by an old friend who's a coach for a local athletics club.
The interesting thing about the shop was they would only do a foot test, i.e the way your foot rests and the way the foot lands while walking bare foot. This how they could tell i was an overpronator.
When i asked if they had a running machine to look at my style of running and gait measurment,
They totally poopooed the idea of that type of thing, and said it was unnecessary.
Judging by how busy the shop was i guess they know what they're on about.
 

pubrunner

Legendary Member
I'm not sure these inserts will help much as i land mid foot. Although i find your topics on footwear interesting.
I'm currently wearing Brooks adrenaline gts 11. As i'm an overpronator.
I purchased these from a running shop that was recommended to me by an old friend who's a coach for a local athletics club.
The interesting thing about the shop was they would only do a foot test, i.e the way your foot rests and the way the foot lands while walking bare foot. This how they could tell i was an overpronator.
When i asked if they had a running machine to look at my style of running and gait measurment,
They totally poopooed the idea of that type of thing, and said it was unecessary.
Judging by how busy the shop was i guess they know what they're on about.

As I mentioned in a previous posting, I'm not convinced as to the value of gait analysis. Gait analysis is done by examining a runner's style on a flat surface. Most of us run on varying terrain and doing so, is better for conditioning (strengthening) feet & legs.
 

Rob3rt

Man or Moose!
Location
Manchester
Road running: You are mostly running on what is relativelly flat the majority of the time so gait analysis on a treadmill is likely to have some merit, I stand by gait analysis based on my experience of running in neutral shoes, barefoot (I used to run barefoot on a treadmill once or twice a week, for up to 15km when I had gym membership), barefoot shoes (Vibram, which I hated as they tore the back of my ankle to shreds - they were the proper fit etc, just not suited for my shape I guess) and shoes based on a gait assessment (both by a shop, which of course is a bit hit and miss and by a sports therapist, who I have a little more confidence in). Out of all my experience, my running was far less prone to injury using the gait analysis prescribed shoes than any other shoe. I should note though, I did have bio mechanics shortfalls relating to weak muscles in my outer hips, which have now been partly addressed via my physio treatment so a new gait analysis might come up with different results this time.

Off-road running: Ground is inherently uneven and gait correction is not a particularly great idea, thus off road shoes are usually neutral (with some exceptions - disclaimer :P).
 

pubrunner

Legendary Member
barefoot shoes (Vibram, which I hated as they tore the back of my ankle to shreds

Did the shoes have a high heel tab ?

I've known runners buy very expensive shoes and then cut the tab off, in order to prevent rubbing against the back of the ankle.
 
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