Christianity ruins a relationship ....Alpha courses?

[CopperBrompton]

One thing I do know is that evolution is probably one of the most 'irrational' ideas I've ever seen!

Clearly you don't understand what evolution is. Evolution is a change in allele frequencies over time, and is a demonstrable fact; no belief required.

Ben

 

[CopperBrompton]

If I were in a relationship with someone and they asked me to share their beliefs, I could not do that. If they asked me to educate myself about their beliefs, I would happily do that.

It seems, from what the OP has posted, that she is merely asking him to attend a course in order to learn about her beliefs. If he cares for her, I can see no reason for him not to do that.

Ben

 

[Rhythm Thief]

+1^
Asking someone to believe in the same things as you do, with no recourse to evidence or even thinking for yourself, would be a big no no for me. My dismissal of Christianity isn't based on ignorance of it - I dabbled in it briefly when I was a sickening adolescent - rather, my scientific education taught me to evaluate evidence and rely on demonstrable facts, two areas where religion is rather sadly lacking.

 

[Rhythm Thief]

By the way, Mr Pig, do you really believe that evolution is an unlikely theory? (This is a genuine question, not an attempt to trip you up.) I ask because I'm interested to know what you see as the alternatives.

 

[Riding in Circles]

Evolution does not exist, if it did then we wouldn't have chavs.


On a serious note I cannot see why evolution and creation cannot co-exist, intelligent evolution, the tweaking of the species.

 

[Fnaar]

Evolution does not exist, if it did then we wouldn't have chavs.


On a serious note I cannot see why evolution and creation cannot co-exist, intelligent evolution, the tweaking of the species.

Pinching sheeps bottoms?

 

[Riding in Circles]

Pinching sheeps bottoms?

I cannot say I have noticed sheeps bottoms in the way you obviously have.

 

[Bug]

To just balance the books here - I'm a Christian evolutionist. I am in the camp of seeing Genesis as an allegorical account of evolution. In fact, it pretty much basically charts a rough outline of evolution from fish to land animals to man. Yes, the order of Sun, Earth, stars, etc is all wrong, but this was written by people thousands of years ago without the benefit of our scientific knowledge. But that's not even the point - Genesis is an account of God's initial relationship with us and how he originally wanted us to live with him. It isn't meant to be a scientific text, so I find it strange that so many Christians seem to want to use it as such.

Going back to the original point, I'd like to just make one comment about Alpha. It's a great tool, but like any tool it is dangerous in the wrong hands. It should be used predominately as a non-pressurised discussion forum, but I worry that some people may be using it with the express purpose of trying to convert people. Additionally, I'm not that mad-keen on Nicky Gumbel's theology, being a bit too Charismatic for my liking.

 

[Dave Davenport]

What I find odd, is how otherwise rational, intelligent people can reconcile having total 'faith' in there own specific religion, whilst knowing that but for an accident of birth they would have just as strong a commitment to a totally different one. i.e Do christians born and bred in the UK not think they'd have just as much 'faith' in buddism if they'd been born & bred in a small Tibetan village?

 

[andyoxon]

To just balance the books here - I'm a Christian evolutionist. I am in the camp of seeing Genesis as an allegorical account of evolution. In fact, it pretty much basically charts a rough outline of evolution from fish to land animals to man. Yes, the order of Sun, Earth, stars, etc is all wrong, but this was written by people thousands of years ago without the benefit of our scientific knowledge. But that's not even the point - Genesis is an account of God's initial relationship with us and how he originally wanted us to live with him. It isn't meant to be a scientific text, so I find it strange that so many Christians seem to want to use it as such.

This is my view too; and I work in science. It’s interesting to read what St Augustine wrote in "The Literal Interpretation of Genesis" (early 5th century, AD) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo#Natural_knowledge_and_biblical_interpretation Christians often can disagree as to theories of how life came about, but generally not that in the end we are all part of God’s creation, and that Christ is central to everything.

Going back to the original point, I'd like to just make one comment about Alpha. It's a great tool, but like any tool it is dangerous in the wrong hands. It should be used predominately as a non-pressurised discussion forum, but I worry that some people may be using it with the express purpose of trying to convert people. Additionally, I'm not that mad-keen on Nicky Gumbel's theology, being a bit too Charismatic for my liking.

Our church is fairly conservative, and there is room for alpha in different flavours of church. I think in the vast majority of cases it is very relaxed – good meal, open discussion, and people don’t have to do anything they don’t feel comfortable with. As a family we went to New Wine (Christian conference at Bath & West showground) last year, excellent camping (though the site shower facilities need an overhaul), good seminars, and charismatic worship style – which was great, though possibly not my usual ‘cup of tea’ either...

 

[Fnaar]

What I find odd, is how otherwise rational, intelligent people can reconcile having total 'faith' in there own specific religion, whilst knowing that but for an accident of birth they would have just as strong a commitment to a totally different one. i.e Do christians born and bred in the UK not think they'd have just as much 'faith' in buddism if they'd been born & bred in a small Tibetan village?

Good question, DD... It makes no rational sense whatsoever! To chuck in my two penn'orth (sheep's bottoms notwithstanding, see above ) can religious folk not see that the only point to all of this (life, the universe, etc)is that there is no point! That is quite a delightful propspect to me, we're simply a part of the whole process of life on this planet... we happen to have evolved a self-consiousness which enables us to question our own situation (unlike (I can only presume) other species...eg: a dog knows things, we know that we know things). Eventually, the human race will die out, or progress in evolutionary terms, and hopefully not take the planet with it. After us, life on earth will continue, and eventually, the planet will die out. Possibly, elsewhere in the universe, a similar porcess is happening (or is at some stage of happening) at the same time. Once you come to terms with this, everything makes a lot more sense That way, contentment lies, in my view and in my experience... leaving you free to try your best to get on with your fellow humans and fellow inhabitants of the planet. Quite simple, really!
Belief in a god is (imho) a failure to come to terms with the basic idea that we simply evolved... no outside being made us. Organised religion stems from a desire to control people's behaviour, to make them think the same as you (not you, personally, whoever reads this, but those who started and continue those religions; although, there are a lot of benign religious folk who simply and genuinely want to help others, and live in peace and harmony... fair enough, I'm with you on that). FWIW, my upbringing was mildly religious, and my parents were believers, and it helped my dad when he was dying (but only, I would say, in a consolatory sense)... but for the latter reason, I will never hold anybody's religion against them, unless you try to influence my life with it in ways which I don't agree with. I also have rellies who are priests, nuns, (and a couple of vicars too, on the other side of the family). So, I will defend your right to believe, but I will not agree with you, and I reserve the right to question it and/or take the mickey!
Here endeth the lesson.

 

[Tetedelacourse]

Well the answer to DD and to the premise that we're only here for a finite amount of time is quite easy; it's God's will! Well, I imagine that's what those who have faith would say.

I enjoy listening to the perspective from those who have a deep faith. I don't have one myself but it interests me to hear how those who do see things and come to terms with things. From this thread, seems it's alll in the interpretation.

For those who deride faith on the basis that there's no evidence, that it's irrational etc, where did it all begin? How did creation happen? Do you think that no belief system is worth holding if it's not supported by fact or facts?

I'm prepared to believe in God as far as it provides an answer of sorts to creation and is a comfort I suppose in thinking of my own mortality, but I don't go in for pretty much anything else, about sin, those who will be saved and those who wont, prayer, worship etc. For me, there are some values, some of which Mr Pig described, which are worth promoting.

So I probably upset both sides to some extent. I can't accept a lot of the archaic preaching in the bible, nor the way it treats the theory of evolution, but on the other hand to live your life by a set of beliefs formed purely by scientific fact falls short.

The single most despicable thing about religion from my perspective though is as Fnaar says above; have your own beliefs but allow me the same freedom. Maybe there are those you feel who need to be saved, but don't force your set of beliefs on me. That's I suppose the underlying problem I have with this woman's approach from the OP. An ultimatum based on a set of beliefs she holds.

 

[CopperBrompton]

I'm prepared to believe in God as far as it provides an answer of sorts to creation

No, it merely moves the question one step back.

If you answer the question 'Where did the universe come from?' with God created it, then you merely change the question to 'Where did God come from?'.

Ben

 

[Tetedelacourse]

No it doesn't. That would be a scientific assessment. Believing in God (as far as I understand it) means accepting that he was the beginning of all things and there's simply no need to question that. That's the advantage of faith over science the way I see it. It provides a point to stop at.

 

[CopperBrompton]

I don't see the advantage, though. If one wants to stop questioning, one could just as easily decide that the Big Bang was the beginning of all things and leave it at that - no need to invent a god.