ColinJ's Guide to Planning A Forum Ride

[ColinJ]

I don't think assuming it's the severity of the rides is going to get you very far. I know you mean well, but personally I find that rather patronising and would be less likely to go on a ride if I thought that people already on it were of the opinion they were going to have to make allowances for me being a woman. It's off-putting.

Sam - I think that you shouldn't assume that I'm assuming! I wrote that because I know it is a factor! I know it because some women have told me that. I think it would really be patronising if I thought that those women don't actually know what they are intimidated by ...

I make no assumptions about people's cycling ability based on gender and I don't like the fact that you assume that I do!

I think that 5 female forum members have come along on my rides over the years (apologies if I've forgotten anyone).

Blonde - one of the strongest cyclists I have ever met, male or female. Super Randonneur.

trio25 - also a very dedicated cyclist. Does 24 hour singlespeed mountain bike events, the Three Peaks. Extremely strong rider.

Wife of Uncle Phil - very experienced and had no trouble whatsoever on those rides of mine.

Fiona N - female globe-trotting super-cyclist, Super Randonneur. Strong, experienced ...

Arch - she found the hills very tough but tackled them anyway. She enjoyed them so much that she signed up for a hilly audax ride round here after that.

I have a female friend who isn't a forum member. Point her and her trusty mountain bike at the gnarliest hills in the Lakes, Wales, the Highlands, the Dales or the Peak District and she is in hog heaven. She isn't fast but a 10 hour hilly ride? No problem!

Where have I suggested that women can't do this, can't do that?

But ... I know there are some women (and men) on the forum that would like to do my forum rides but are intimidated by them. I know because they have told me so. Jacqui, for example. She came on the forum last year looking for advice and encouragement as she built up to doing the London to Paris charity event. Lots of us did encourage her and were thrilled for her to achieve her goal.

I said that I'd organise a slightly less demanding ride some time for her, and anybody else who is trying to build up their stamina. Not because I assume that she couldn't do a harder ride - but because she doesn't come on the harder ones, and has asked if I would.

I'd like to be inclusive. Fitter women (and men) come on my rides and slow down for me. I'd be happy to organise a ride for less fit men (and women) or those who simply don't fancy being out all day. Where's the problem?

Picking arguments with your 'friends' isn't going to get anybody very far!


Okay, I think the definitely non-patronising solution is to resurrect one of my figure-of-8 routes. Anybody (male or female) who for whatever reason (lack of fitness, childcare concerns, other time constraints) only wants to do the first loop can do that and have the cafe stop with everybody else. Anybody who for whatever reason does fancy the second loop can come along. No assumptions, no judgements, inclusive - how about that?

(I'll issue Jacqui with a personal invite. I'm trying hard to think of other female forum members in the area. I might just have to ask.)

 

[ColinJ]

Perhaps with living in the hills Colin, you have trace's of "sheepdog" in your blood and have a natural trait to round people up. Now I know when I see you stopped by the road side with your tounge hanging out, panting furiously and your eyes wide open looking round, you not tired at all but your excited with the chase and rounding everybody up and ready to go again.

Yep - I'm a Col-lie!

Beside that, an excellent thread, how about a printable flowchart.

It's not that complicated is it! Perhaps a checklist would be a good idea though?

 

[Ravenbait]

Sam - I think that you shouldn't assume that I'm assuming! I wrote that because I know it is a factor! I know it because some women have told me that. I think it would really be patronising if I thought that those women don't actually know what they are intimidated by ...

My apologies. You said:

Oh - one thing I haven't succeeded at is attracting many female CycleChat members to my rides so I'd particularly like advice on how to achieve that. I know that there are far more men on this site than women, but I'm sure that the women are under-represented.

I know that the severity of my rides may be a factor, and a natural hesitation about riding off into the middle of nowhere with a bunch of male strangers could also be a worry, but I think if you asked the women who have been on my rides how they were treated, they'd say that their ride partners were 'perfect gentlemen' and we all had a good laugh together.

I read this as saying you thought it might be a factor, which is a bit like that bloke in Edinburgh Bike expressing surprise that I ride fixed because I'm a girl. If you'd said that you knew it was a factor because you'd been told that then I wouldn't have mentioned it. You were asking why women were under-represented. As a woman all I was doing was suggesting that statements like the one I quoted come across as patronising.


Seriously: you may not be aware of how much patronising nonsense women cyclists have to put up with, from bike shop staff assuming we know eff all about bikes and can't fix a puncture to guys thinking that a girl who wears lycra is giving them permission to make comments about her breasts. After a while it gets tiring and there's a tendency to be over-sensitive. You asked a question. I was trying to be helpful.

I make no assumptions about people's cycling ability based on gender and I don't like the fact that you assume that I do!

That was how your statement came across. You didn't mean it that way: I'm sorry for misinterpreting it.

Okay, I think the definitely non-patronising solution is to resurrect one of my figure-of-8 routes. Anybody (male or female) who for whatever reason (lack of fitness, childcare concerns, other time constraints) only wants to do the first loop can do that and have the cafe stop with everybody else. Anybody who for whatever reason does fancy the second loop can come along. No assumptions, no judgements, inclusive - how about that?

(I'll issue Jacqui with a personal invite. I'm trying hard to think of other female forum members in the area. I might just have to ask.)

Sounds good to me.

Sam

 

[Rohloff_Brompton_Rider]

Colin,

i have to be honest here, i read it exactly the same way as sam. and i was surprised, as i know that you don't think that old fashioned way. so don't take offense at sam's comments. sam, i can assure you colin would have meant no disrespect to female cyclists as he's had his arsed kicked by many including potsy

 

[Ravenbait]

Colin,

i have to be honest here, i read it exactly the same way as sam. and i was surprised, as i know that you don't think that old fashioned way. so don't take offense at sam's comments. sam, i can assure you colin would have meant no disrespect to female cyclists as he's had his arsed kicked by many including potsy

I was surprised as well and I didn't for a moment think that Colin was being disrespectful. Sometimes people can say something that comes across in a way that isn't intended, and/or make assumptions that we shouldn't, even when we mean well (and I'm talking about myself as well here). I hope there aren't any ill-feelings.

Sam

 

[her_welshness]

Colin that was a really well written piece and there have been some excellent points as well.

A backmarker really helps keep the group together!

Don't let the hares get past the ride leader, I have seen this on a few occasions. What tends to happen is that the hares will up the pace which puts pressure on the ride leader to increase the pace and your ride will string out.

If you have someone who is slower and is at the back, its always nice to have someone with them to encourage them. I have always appreciated it when others (a few from this forum) will stay behind and chat to me Do not tell someone that they have to up their pace. We are not a racing club!

Be honest about what the ride will entail. I actually think the CTC rating system is quite good. There is that question though that the ride will be arduous for me but will be a walk in the park for someone else. Average mph is also useful.

Tempers and emotions flare up! Make sure people take on snackage. Stops should be encouraged.

 

[lukesdad]

Really good points comming out of this thread, we struggle to get numbers for the welsh rides maybe people think they are too tough because they are in wales. Perhaps we could have an informal grading system as a sticky and ride organizers indicate which grade the ride is likely to be. Members would have some idea then as to what they are letting themselves in for. I know, I know, everybodys going to have different ideas as to how to grade it but surely we could put some sort of framework together couldn't we ?

 

[User10119]

Well, I'm a woman who hasn't signed up to a Colin ride because of their 'severity'. Although the reason that they are too severe is because I'm fat and slow (and not in the way that many people on here mean when they say that - I actually am!) rather than being in any way connected to me having ovaries

Over the last year or so I seem to have made a bit of a habit of going off and meeting strange men from the internet and riding bikes with them, including a few hilly rides and one or two where I really was well and truly out of my depth although, because of who I was riding with, it wasn't a problem.

I've never signed up for yours, Colin, basically because I'm still too slow and know I'd find it incredibly uncomfortable being the person holding everyone up. I really like the fact that you are always pretty clear about how hilly the route is and how fast you expect to go - it lets people reading make an informed choice.

I had my first foray into allegedly being in charge of a ride recently. 55-ish miles - one bit dead flat, middle bit with lumps in (including 2 descents where even I am happy to hit over 35mph), flat run back. One cake stop, one stop to play pooh sticks, one cafe, one stop for afternoon tea with my mum (and her homemade scones), one pub stop. There's a reason I'm still fat and slow

 

[ColinJ]

I read this as saying you thought it might be a factor, which is a bit like that bloke in Edinburgh Bike expressing surprise that I ride fixed because I'm a girl. If you'd said that you knew it was a factor because you'd been told that then I wouldn't have mentioned it. You were asking why women were under-represented. As a woman all I was doing was suggesting that statements like the one I quoted come across as patronising.

Well, I did write might be but I still think it would be better if you didn't have a hair-trigger response to perceived put-downs. You could always check first.

It would go something like this ...

Sam: "Are you implying that women are too weak or timid to tackle one of your majestic routes?"

Colin: "Er, no - sorry, I didn't mean to sound patronising - I know several female cyclists who are far fitter than I will ever be. It's just that some women have told me that they are not ready for rides that tough. Some men too, but to be honest, I'm not short of men on my rides!"

Or, maybe ...

Sam: "Are you implying that women are too weak or timid to tackle one of your majestic routes?"

Colin: "Exactly!"

(There is a nervous muttering as forum members inch backwards to a safe distance!)

Sam: "You f*****g what! If you think that ..."

Getting back to the bikes - What - you ride fixed!

(I know quite a few women who ride fixed and they love it. I, on the other hand, am too scared to try it after being thrown into the air by a 20 kg flywheel when I stopped pedalling what I'd forgotten was a fixed-wheel gym bike.)

When I first started cycling again as an adult I had a few annoying comments made to me as an unfit 16.5 stone man so I know what it feels like. When I asked if the cassette on my new bike could be changed to give me an easier climbing gear, the skinny whippet serving me laughed in my face and bragged about how he'd raced up steep cobbled climbs in Belgium on much harder gears than the bike was already equipped with.

The only reason I didn't turn and walk out without the bike was that I'd taken a day off work to go and buy it and I was looking forward to riding it. It's not just women who get looked down on, laughed at and disrespected.

I want women to be treated properly. I saw a report about the Wal-Mart class action in the USA last night and couldn't believe that the management actually told female employees that they should accept being paid less than their male colleagues because the men 'had families to support'!

 

[ColinJ]

I hope there aren't any ill-feelings.

Sam

Of course not! I just don't like the idea of upsetting people.

A backmarker really helps keep the group together!

Don't let the hares get past the ride leader, I have seen this on a few occasions. What tends to happen is that the hares will up the pace which puts pressure on the ride leader to increase the pace and your ride will string out.

If you have someone who is slower and is at the back, its always nice to have someone with them to encourage them. I have always appreciated it when others (a few from this forum) will stay behind and chat to me Do not tell someone that they have to up their pace. We are not a racing club!

Be honest about what the ride will entail. I actually think the CTC rating system is quite good. There is that question though that the ride will be arduous for me but will be a walk in the park for someone else. Average mph is also useful.

Tempers and emotions flare up! Make sure people take on snackage. Stops should be encouraged.

I am usually one of the slowest riders on my rides and I'm the guy with the GPS so that automatically tends to hold people back because they don't know exactly where we are going!

The other riders get rests at the top of every significant climb while I catch up, and they are often snacking or drinking when I get up to them.

On Sunday we did have a little pressure to up the pace after the cafe stop. It was resolved by splitting into two groups. It was the length of the ride that led to that. Well, and the fact that we slow riders were slow, of course!

I've never had anybody get bad-tempered or be rude to any other rider. I mentioned on Sunday that I have met over 50 CycleChat members so far and not met one that I wouldn't want to see again but it is almost inevitable that one day we will get one. I'm not looking forward to having to say "I'm sorry sir/madam, but your behaviour on today's ride was unacceptable and you will not be welcome to join us again!"

Really good points comming out of this thread, we struggle to get numbers for the welsh rides maybe people think they are too tough because they are in wales.

I think the problem with the Welsh rides is the remoteness. I'd love to come to Wales for another cycling holiday when finances permit, but it is too far away for a forum ride, or even 2 forum rides back to back. I'd want to come for a week.

[QUOTE 1351185"]
Well, I'm a woman who hasn't signed up to a Colin ride because of their 'severity'. Although the reason that they are too severe is because I'm fat and slow (and not in the way that many people on here mean when they say that - I actually am!) rather than being in any way connected to me having ovaries

Over the last year or so I seem to have made a bit of a habit of going off and meeting strange men from the internet and riding bikes with them, including a few hilly rides and one or two where I really was well and truly out of my depth although, because of who I was riding with, it wasn't a problem.

I've never signed up for yours, Colin, basically because I'm still too slow and know I'd find it incredibly uncomfortable being the person holding everyone up. I really like the fact that you are always pretty clear about how hilly the route is and how fast you expect to go - it lets people reading make an informed choice.

I had my first foray into allegedly being in charge of a ride recently. 55-ish miles - one bit dead flat, middle bit with lumps in (including 2 descents where even I am happy to hit over 35mph), flat run back. One cake stop, one stop to play pooh sticks, one cafe, one stop for afternoon tea with my mum (and her homemade scones), one pub stop. There's a reason I'm still fat and slow
[/quote]
That is quite a lot of stops! Arch told me that the York posse once had 3 cafe stops in 25 miles which could be nice, but I would be a bit frustrated with that. Also - I can't afford more than 1 cafe stop per forum ride. If we were having more than one I wouldn't be able to buy anything at the others.

How slow is slow? We took 11 hours to do 101 miles which is only 9.2 mph average speed. The 58 mile Waddington rides (including the cafe stop) were taking about 7 hours or so, so that's about the same speed.

 

[User10119]

That is quite a lot of stops! Arch told me that the York posse once had 3 cafe stops in 25 miles which could be nice, but I would be a bit frustrated with that. Also - I can't afford more than 1 cafe stop per forum ride. If we were having more than one I wouldn't be able to buy anything at the others.

Well, it was always going to be a leisurely ride - the whole point was to get kimble and her dodgy knee (which was driving her bonkers by limiting her range) out onto some different roads. And we had one person along who was doing their first ride of any length of the year, and another rider was a teenager attempting her first half-century ride so I wanted to make sure we had plenty of stops so I was confident that she was coping, and that she was eating/drinking enough. Cost - well, people were only paying in the cafe at lunchtime since I provided the bacon butties round at ours before we set off and the cake for the cake stop, my mum provided the tea and scones for afternoon tea and in the pub I chose we got a round for 7 people and change from a tenner!

How slow is slow? We took 11 hours to do 101 miles which is only 9.2 mph average speed. The 58 mile Waddington rides (including the cafe stop) were taking about 7 hours or so, so that's about the same speed.

Depends on how hilly hilly is! I'm faster than I used to be, on the flat at least. And I've got better at letting gravity do the work for me on the descents, since I'm not quite as lily-livered as I used to be. I got round the Fountain's Monk'y business 100km on Sunday in around 7 hours, including two cafe stops, 2 roadside cake stops and a couple of pauses for the chap I rode round with to adjust the number of layers he was wearing. But climbing slows me down. A lot!

Bear in mind that last summer I woudn't have even attempted a ride billed as anything remotely resembing hilly. Now I will (in fact I appear to have signed up to ride to Tan Hill later this year - studiously not looking at the elevation profile for that one!) but only if I'm really sure that people know I mean it when I say I'll be slow on the climbs, and that really nobody there is going be bothered by that. Not every ride is suitable for every rider, and that's fine. Vive la difference!

 

[SlowerThanASluggishSloth]

Nice post Colin.

Worthy of a sticky in my opinion.

I'd also add that the friendly write up of the ride after the event with the inclusion of a few photographs showing that it was real people on the ride rather than ultra-thin racers on 3oz bikes made me feel a lot more comfortable about signing up for my first forum ride with you.

Oh - and of course if you really want to attract the hot chicks onto the ride - just post a few more photos of me and my stunning good looks. Should do the trick.

You might want to change your avatar then Steve!

 

[Garz]

Perhaps with living in the hills Colin, you have trace's of "sheepdog" in your blood and have a natural trait to round people up.

 

[ColinJ]

I've added more suggestions to the end of the original post.

 

[potsy]

[QUOTE 1351188"]
Depends on how hilly hilly is! I'm faster than I used to be, on the flat at least. And I've got better at letting gravity do the work for me on the descents, since I'm not quite as lily-livered as I used to be. I got round the Fountain's Monk'y business 100km on Sunday in around 7 hours, including two cafe stops, 2 roadside cake stops and a couple of pauses for the chap I rode round with to adjust the number of layers he was wearing. But climbing slows me down. A lot!

Bear in mind that last summer I woudn't have even attempted a ride billed as anything remotely resembing hilly. Now I will (in fact I appear to have signed up to ride to Tan Hill later this year - studiously not looking at the elevation profile for that one!) but only if I'm really sure that people know I mean it when I say I'll be slow on the climbs, and that really nobody there is going be bothered by that. Not every ride is suitable for every rider, and that's fine. Vive la difference!
[/quote]

The 1st question I always used to ask when Colin posts a new ride thread is 'how hilly is it?'
The first ride this year I did with him I tentatively enquired about the route and how maybe in a few weeks I could tackle a ride like that, and that I wasn't ready yet etc etc. I ended up getting talked into doing it anyway and the first two I found really tough, (57 miler and a hilly 32 miler)
Now only 7 or 8 weeks later and I don't even worry about it, just put my name down straight away.
I've met some really great people on these rides too, hopefully one day you'll come along to one of these rides and maybe bring Arch with you too

This is a great idea for a thread Colin, hopefully it will inspire even more cycle-chatters to turn out for the rides now.