Coronavirus outbreak

[kingrollo]

Thank you.

One of the best and most balanced opinion posts I have read for a long time.

You want to get over to the daily mail site sharpish then.

 

[newfhouse]

You will never, in a million years, ever believe that Matt Hancock did the best he could considering the pressure, time, demands and new knowledge appearing every day, you will always say he gave dodgy contracts and is responsible for everyone who died.

Contracts for mates notwithstanding, I suspect he did do his best. It’s not unreasonable, though, to question whether his best was good enough, or even the best available.

 

[lane]

The problem here is who gets to decide if the advice was ok at the time?

You will never, in a million years, ever believe that Matt Hancock did the best he could considering the pressure, time, demands and new knowledge appearing every day, you will always say he gave dodgy contracts and is responsible for everyone who died.

During Covid 1 I had a conversation, in a small room with no masks, with three very senior clinicians trying to decide where the upper respiratory tract started, and what was an AGP and what wasn't, and whether an oral cavity AGP was less risky than a lower respiratory tract AGP. A decision was made, and it was different to the one that subsequently came out from the DoH about 4 weeks later. As there were no evolutionary changes in the time between the two, should we be held accountable for having a different definition of the upper respiratory tract?

Think back to HIV, in the early days the advice was be careful with shared facilities, always wear gloves, unprotected oral sex was ok, find out the facts, don't die of ignorance. Then Lady Di touched a patient and didn't die! Actually that was against the advice at the time, but showed a huge degree of human compassion and kindness. When Boris did the same with the Covid patient, he followed the advice of wash your hands etc, at the time he did that we were working on our Trusts Covid response in a tiny office with 4 of us! Now both things seem utterly and unbelievably ludicrous that we ever did that!

This whole thing has been so unbelievably fast paced, that to now put the sword of Damocles over the heads of people with 'if we find out you got it wrong in a years time you will be held accountable' is outrageous. This hasn't been a learning curve, it's been a learning vertical wall, and we are still trying to climb it.

I guess the inquiry will take a view. Although i doubt the two main protagonists have much to fear - they are both ready for retirement and one is a multimillionaire from his time working in the drugs industry.

 

[PK99]

One thing I observe here, more generally on the InterWeb, and in the real world, is a misunderstanding of how science works.

Many non scientists appear to think science works through certainty and consensus. Scientists know it works through uncertainty and challenge.

 

[SpokeyDokey]

But some countries have fared better than others.

Australia for example lock down whole cities on half a dozen cases. Boris and chubby mates look a million miles from learning that lesson.

Ignoring the rather silly (imo) 'chubby mates' comment we've already been around the block on the non-comparables aspect of the UK vs Australia - no two nation's identities are exactly comparable and especially these two.

Time to move on a tad?

 

[Craig the cyclist]

Contracts for mates notwithstanding, I suspect he did do his best. It’s not unreasonable, though, to question whether his best was good enough, or even the best available.

Fair enough, and exactly the reason that the inquiry will be ultimately pointless. 1/2 the country will read the report and say 'that all seems fair and dandy', the other 1/2 will read the report and say 'this is a steaming pile of do-do and nothing more than a *leftie attack on the government/establishment cover-up (whichever way it goes)' Still it will fill newspapers and tv news for the next 4 years.

But anyway, tell us, what would you do from here? Or will you just take great delight telling us that you wouldn't do whatever the government decide to do, thus putting yourself in the position of being able to say 'told you so' or 'well, they were lucky this time, but it's because of the scientists and not Boris and his decision making'.

How would you handle the upcoming date of June 21st, bearing in my mind you don't know what is around the corner?

 

[kingrollo]

Ignoring the rather silly (imo) 'chubby mates' comment we've already been around the block on the non-comparables aspect of the UK vs Australia - no two nation's identities are exactly comparable and especially these two.

Time to move on a tad?

Ok - back to backslapping.

Well done Boris you've done really well. Damm shame we have one the worst death rates....yeah but let's move along.....

That ok Mate ?

 

[kingrollo]

Fair enough, and exactly the reason that the inquiry will be ultimately pointless. 1/2 the country will read the report and say 'that all seems fair and dandy', the other 1/2 will read the report and say 'this is a steaming pile of do-do and nothing more than a *leftie attack on the government/establishment cover-up (whichever way it goes)' Still it will fill newspapers and tv news for the next 4 years.

But anyway, tell us, what would you do from here? Or will you just take great delight telling us that you wouldn't do whatever the government decide to do, thus putting yourself in the position of being able to say 'told you so' or 'well, they were lucky this time, but it's because of the scientists and not Boris and his decision making'.

How would you handle the upcoming date of June 21st, bearing in my mind you don't know what is around the corner?

I ask Boris what he was thinking of doing. Then do the opposite.

 

[SpokeyDokey]

There'll always be critics. But some critics are better informed than others. Evidence from the autumn suggests that it was not just hindsight that tells us the lockdown was too late.

Forecasting science is predicated on learning from mistakes and improving the prediction model. That is the same for policy making. The first stage in that is admitting when mistakes were made and not blaming 'the scientists'.

I wonder if, when the enquiry gets underway we will be more aware of the multi-faceted inputs into the Gov's decision making process?

Criticism thus far has generally pivoted on the responses according to the available 'science' which is obviously a major driver but not the only one.

In addition there would have been multiple inputs from law enforcement agencies, constitutional legal experts, finance agencies, representatives from major business bodies, civil liberties groups, the Opposition, leaders of the other UK countries, regional politicians etc, etc.

A far more complex scenario to manage than the science only.

 

[Rocky]

Ignoring the rather silly (imo) 'chubby mates' comment we've already been around the block on the non-comparables aspect of the UK vs Australia - no two nation's identities are exactly comparable and especially these two.

Time to move on a tad?

Well no. We’ve made some incredibly strange decisions as a country. For example mask wearing in schools. It’s now compulsory in corridors but not lessons. 15 year old next door has just tested positive and caught it from the pupil behind her in computing class. Pupil to the left also has. Why is Williamson rolling back on mask wearing when the delta strain is hitting the unvaccinated? Is it to appease his back benchers like Swayne, Baker and others?

 

[vickster]

What do the teaching unions say about masks in classes, for or against, they like to speak out? Assuming they even think schools should be open now?

 

[Rocky]

What do the teaching unions say about masks in classes, for or against, they like to speak out?

The unions, as I recall, wrote to the government asking for them to remain in place.

 

[Craig the cyclist]

I ask Boris what he was thinking of doing. Then do the opposite.

Rolling out a hugely successful vaccination programme is not something you would have done? That seems a bit reckless doesn't it?

 

[Pale Rider]

I doubt there's much public appetite for an inquiry - except among those who want another stick with which to beat Boris.

The public understands we never attempted to 100% follow the science, which in any case was far from perfect.

The public also understands the many and various reasons why we didn't follow that science.

Better to focus resources and where we are and where we might be going, rather then endlessly raking over what's done.

 

[Ajax Bay]

But some countries have fared better than others.
Australia for example lock down whole cities on half a dozen cases. Boris and chubby mates look a million miles from learning that lesson.

You want to get over to the daily mail site sharpish then.

Ok - back to backslapping.
Well done Boris you've done really well. Damn shame we have one the worst death rates....yeah but let's move along.....
That ok Mate ?

I ask Boris what he was thinking of doing. Then do the opposite.

Welcome back @kingrollo ! It'd be great if you could add a bit more substance to your posts so we have an idea of what you think.
Why do you think the UK has one of the worst death rates? Do you think that the UK should have "locked down whole cities on half a dozen cases"? I have no idea who you probably unfairly and certainly impolitely describe as chubby. What is the lesson you think they have not learned?