COVID Vaccine !

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Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
UK 13 million. EU 17 million. It's a different measure that tells you something different - that the EU is better in absolute terms at giving vaccines than the UK government will admit.
Rule number 1 of statistics - always compare.
Rule number 2 - the best measure is usually a relative one. Percentage of population is the best measure.
Rule number 3 - other measures may well tell you other things of interest.
Spot on. Have "the UK Government admitted" (shared their assessment of) how good the 27 nations have individually or collectively been at giving their populations vaccine in absolute terms? I haven't noticed.
Don't you think the USA are doing well? Well, in absolute terms better than anywhere in the world (maybe China has vaccinated more, but we don't know).
 
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Pale Rider

Legendary Member
That 27 nations have vaccinated more people than four nations doesn't tell me anything.

Other than someone is desperately trying to twist the numbers in favour of the 27.
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
That 27 nations have vaccinated more people than four nations doesn't tell me anything.
Come on, Paley. As @srw has explicitly said, it does say something. I suspect the rate of vaccination (doses per day) is higher too. But the rate of first doses is lower, because they're are prudently sticking to 3 weeks as the gap, because there is no trial evidence of efficacy of the first dose after 21 days. (NB the WHO said yesterday that they'd recommend the longer gap.)
"It's a different measure that tells you something different . . . . (3) may well tell you other things of interest."
Don't think 'interesting' is applicable, though, for this absolute measure when used in comparative context.
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
For the world, think the UK is doing 'more than' its bit with COVAX and GAVI - I think we can be proud of that, but I don't know the ins and outs. Without the huge and early funding/investment made by UK and USA (Warp Speed) in particular (China and Russia investment less broadcast/visible) there would be no vaccines for anyone, would there? The low cost of the Oxford-AZ vaccine (was UK government an influence there?) means that countries around the world will, with help, be able to afford the doses needed. It is of course in everyone's interest that vaccination is worldwide.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Without the huge and early funding/investment made by UK and USA (Warp Speed) in particular (China and Russia investment less broadcast/visible) there would be no vaccines for anyone, would there?
I'm not sure that's accurate. I thought Pfizer-BioNTech was developed without government funding, although it was used to increase production. So we'd probably have fewer doses of fewer vaccines.

The low cost of the Oxford-AZ vaccine (was UK government an influence there?)
I'm sure I read that it was an early condition added by Oxford Uni, before gov.uk were even taking covid seriously. I can't remember if that's what broke the first attempted deal with Merck.

means that countries around the world will, with help, be able to afford the doses needed. It is of course in everyone's interest that vaccination is worldwide.
Cool. So how does the gov.uk "us first" rhetoric fit in with helping vaccination worldwide?
 

SpokeyDokey

67, & my GP says I will officially be old at 70!
Moderator
It's a different measure. The rhetoric in the UK is that the EU has completely failed to get people vaccinated - so I was surprised to discover that it has actually done more than the UK. As I've said before, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon, and nobody will be safe until everyone is safe.

Agree with your last line.

But, just under 18 million vaccinated out of what(?) 450 million people is hardly a stellar performance - whilst nearly 18 million have been vaccinated by no stretch of the imagination has Europe grasped the mettle as the UK have.
 

srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
Agree with your last line.

But, just under 18 million vaccinated out of what(?) 450 million people is hardly a stellar performance - whilst nearly 18 million have been vaccinated by no stretch of the imagination has Europe grasped the mettle as the UK have.
See posts passim ad nauseam. As so often happens online, you are imposing your own interpretation on what I actually wrote and trying to pick a fight which isn't there. I thought it was interesting to discover that the EU has done more vaccinations than the UK. If, like me, you read the newspapers and listen to UK politicians you would probably assume the opposite was the case.

Oh, and it's "grasp the nettle".
 
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I'm not sure that's accurate. I thought Pfizer-BioNTech was developed without government funding, although it was used to increase production. So we'd probably have fewer doses of fewer vaccines.
that's correct https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti... is that Pfizer,-- from the German government. germany supplied money for infrastructure the us just placed an huge order.

I'm sure I read that it was an early condition added by Oxford Uni, before gov.uk were even taking covid seriously. I can't remember if that's what broke the first attempted deal with Merck.
They correctly established they the lines needed to be as short as possible, so having Merch produce it's vaccine in the us was'nt viable that's why they choose AZ also because off it's european network.
offcrouse Trumps i buy all vaccine mantra did'nt help either
Cool. So how does the gov.uk "us first" rhetoric fit in with helping vaccination worldwide?
That the eu before von der Leyen's credit to her groveling apology blamed the uk for there failures does not make the uk suddenly responsible for their mess. Just as the eu isn't responible for the failures that led to the uk death toll. The facts are quite simple the uk invested much more to help AZ to setup their infrastructure and that why the uk production is so much better. if you scroll 20-30 pages down you can find the link where you can read that information. Stop spreading the false premise of an vaccine war..
 

PK99

Legendary Member
Location
SW19
See posts passim ad nauseam. As so often happens online, you are imposing your own interpretation on what I actually wrote and trying to pick a fight which isn't there. I thought it was interesting to discover that the EU has done more vaccinations than the UK. If, like me, you read the newspapers and listen to UK politicians you would probably assume the opposite was the case.

Oh, and it's "grasp the nettle".

By your measure of number of vaccines delivered Israel is performing poorly only 5.7 Million against the EU's 17.6 million
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
That the eu before von der Leyen's credit to her groveling apology blamed the uk for there failures does not make the uk suddenly responsible for their mess. [...] Stop spreading the false premise of an vaccine war..
As far as I saw, the EU blamed AZ not the UK, except for some unnamed sources claimed by UK tabloids with reputations for creativity. So, as for "spreading the false premise of an vaccine war" the old saying applies to the above post: physician, heal thyself!
 

srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
By your measure of number of vaccines delivered Israel is performing poorly only 5.7 Million against the EU's 17.6 million
Once again - I am comparing absolute numbers of people vaccinated, not how well or poorly different countries are doing. Yes, Israel has injected fewer people than the EU or the UK. The word "poorly" is your own interpretation.

What Israel has done poorly at is helping its neighbours, particularly in Palestine. Which isn't terribly smart.
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
I'm sure I read that it was an early condition added by Oxford Uni, before gov.uk were even taking covid seriously. I can't remember if that's what broke the first attempted deal with Merck.
AZ’s profits rise to $7.4bn as main business ‘remains strong’ Feb 21).
AZ (and partners worldwide) will be producing three billion doses worldwide in 2021 (@ $3(?) per dose).
This Cherwell article gives an insight into the Oxford Uni to Merck > AZ considerations. Once the pandemic is over, there will be money to be made by AZ and a significant funding stream (6% of profits) coming back into the university (aiui) to go into medical research. Besides manufacturing location issues the stumbling blocks for link up with Merck were these:
1) Oxford closed talks with the pharmaceutical company Merck after concerns that it could not provide the vaccine to poorer countries.
2) Merck offered Oxford only 1% in royalties. (Wall Street Journal)

The article notes that that Oxford could have funded an awful lot of medical research if it had kept the rights to penicillin last century.
Edited extract:
Sir John Bell, Regius professor of medicine at Oxford, said that if Oxford did not have a stake in the vaccine, “people are going to come back and say, ‘Oh my God, another British university inventing something worth a ton of money, and guess what, they gave it away for free’.”
“The University didn’t enter this discussion with the idea of making a ton of money. Let’s say [the vaccine] becomes a seasonal coronavirus vaccine, and it sells a billion dollars a year. For us to be sitting there and making no money looks pretty dumb.”
Oxford University said in April (once AZ agreement signed): “As well as providing UK access as early as possible if the vaccine candidate is successful, Astra Zeneca will work with global partners on the international distribution of the vaccine, particularly working to make it available and accessible for low and medium income countries.”
 
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