Criminal Damage Investigation - Need your help!

[Lozz360]

Although Scottish notes are mostly accepted south of the border, they can be refused as they are not legal tender. Paying £250 in, say 5p pieces, would have to be accepted as it would be legal tender.

Correction: 5p pieces are legal tender only for value up to £5. The only way to pay £250 in LT coins would be in £1 (or £2 coins) as they are LT for any amount.

 

[Deleted member 26715]

Can I ask a point of order please, If you have to pay damages as a result of a court case do you pay them direct to the person/company etc. or do you pay them to the court for them to pass on?

 

[Deleted member 26715]

So being an arse & paying in anything other a cheque or card is not going to get you anywhere then, not even the satisfaction of pissing off the driver.

 

[jarlrmai]

Pay it, move on, maybe get a camera of your own.

 

[Pale Rider]

The "injured party" wasn't injured until he nearly hit the bike, and the police according to the OP agree they could take action on the driver, that''s following the evidence.

The OP making a statement that goes against the video evidence, imo would not be taken as evidence of a crime.

He has already made a statement, or at least given an interview, which admits the sect 4 public order offence.

That's why I mentioned the difficulty of 'undoing' it.

Yes, he could tell the police to get lost, get himself charged, go to court and tell an entirely different story, plus another story as to why his account has changed.

Trust me, it would be a car crash.

 

[Goggs]

I don't see how he has commited an offence in the first place. Surely the duress he was under at the time of his shouting must go to mitigation? He could argue he was in fear of his life or serious injury by the actions of the driver. If that went to a jury I don't think it would be as open & shut as some are suggesting.

 

[flake99please]

Chances are that if it went to court their would not be a jury consisting of cyclechat forum members. The OP is likely to be facing a jury of sympathetic drivers.

Given the situation as it is, I would be seeking legal advice from at least 2 professionals in criminal law before accepting any charges/fines.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

Update. As it currently stands I stand to get a caution for Section 4 public order offence (no argument there) and criminal damage. The estimate for the criminal damage (I asked for three quotes and pictorial evidence) has come in at £250.

Now, the 'damage' is just in front of the rear wheel arch of his vehicle. I did not and cannot have done that damage with my hand, which was what I hit his vehicle with. However, to contest this, is to go to court on both counts and as I am clearly guilty of the former, it will cost me more and I WILL end up with a criminal record. Even with my witness that would back me up on the criminal damage issue; it's not worth it.

I have just calculated that £250 in coppers will weigh 13st and I'm not prepared to carry that. Answers on a postcard as to how to make it as unpalatable as [legally] possible...

Russell

I really don't understand this arrangement. It raises too many questions:

What are the police saying they will do in relation to the (false) criminal damage? Are they suggesting they have the evidence to charge you with that and put a case for it to court? If so, based on what? Also, if they have enough evidence, why aren't they cautioning (or charging) you for both offences? Why just the public order offence?

If they don't have the evidence to charge you, why would they suddenly decide to do so just because you don't accept a caution for the first offence?

I disagree that you're "clearly guilty" of the threatening behaviour charge, as it doesn't take into account the understandable fear and apprehension you had for your own safety as a result of the twat's bad driving.

Accepting this caution means you will have a criminal record.
By rejecting it you give yourself two opportunities of avoiding a criminal record, for the reasons explained by @bobinski previously.

If I were in your shoes, and I appreciate it's always easier for the onlooker to say this, I'd stand my ground and take my chance either that the CPS binned it or my defence agent could show at trial that my reaction was justified and that there was no evidence I caused, or even could have caused, the damage alleged.

By the way, are the police making this offer of a caution conditional on you paying compensation to the driver for the alleged damage?

Please take proper legal advice on this from someone other than the duty solicitor who went to the interview with you. What @bobinski said up thread makes more sense to me than anything else I've heard here.

 

[jefmcg]

I wish people would stop giving legal advice. None of us has seen the video nor read the statement, so even if there are lawyers amongst us, good ones wouldn't give advice on so little information.

@russ.will, please talk to a criminal lawyer.

Edit : one tmn to @glasgowcyclist

 

[PhilDawson8270]

Unfortunately, the OP attended the interview and gave them all the evidence they need for a public order offence charge. However, he certainly should fight the damage one.

 

[Pale Rider]

'Fear and apprehension' - or whatever you want to call it - is no defence to the public order charge.

It's only relevance would be as mitigation at sentence following a conviction.

Evidence of the criminal damage appears very weak, so the OP could fight that.

But would he want to?

His current option appears to be accept a public order act caution, pay £250 and the criminal damage goes away.

If he fights the criminal damage, the OP would still have the public order caution and would be putting himself at risk of a criminal damage conviction.

The other possibility is if he fights the criminal damage, the police withdraw the offer of a caution and the OP ends up being tried for the public order offence and criminal damage.

Then there's the practicalities of attending a few court hearings, attending for the trial, and preparing for it.

The OP is very keen to avoid a conviction, so he may be attracted by paying £250 to rule out any prospect of being convicted of anything.

 

[classic33]

Although Scottish notes are mostly accepted south of the border, they can be refused as they are not legal tender. Paying £250 in, say 5p pieces, would have to be accepted as it would be legal tender.

Scottish banknotes aren't even legal tender in Scotland.

That from the Royal Bank of Scotland.

 

[PhilDawson8270]

Is it possible OP is actually being offered a Conditional Caution? Where a condition is that he pays for the damage to be repaired.

 

[benb]

I don't see how he has commited an offence in the first place. Surely the duress he was under at the time of his shouting must go to mitigation? He could argue he was in fear of his life or serious injury by the actions of the driver. If that went to a jury I don't think it would be as open & shut as some are suggesting.

Chances are that if it went to court their would not be a jury consisting of cyclechat forum members. The OP is likely to be facing a jury of sympathetic drivers.

It won't go to a jury at all, as it would be tried in a Magistrate's Court.

 

[bobinski]

Update. As it currently stands I stand to get a caution for Section 4 public order offence (no argument there) and criminal damage. The estimate for the criminal damage (I asked for three quotes and pictorial evidence) has come in at £250.

Now, the 'damage' is just in front of the rear wheel arch of his vehicle. I did not and cannot have done that damage with my hand, which was what I hit his vehicle with. However, to contest this, is to go to court on both counts and as I am clearly guilty of the former, it will cost me more and I WILL end up with a criminal record. Even with my witness that would back me up on the criminal damage issue; it's not worth it.

I have just calculated that £250 in coppers will weigh 13st and I'm not prepared to carry that. Answers on a postcard as to how to make it as unpalatable as [legally] possible...

Russell

You cannot be cautioned for something you do not admit. There has to be an offence evidenced by some compelling, witness or otherwise, evidence AND your admission. Have a look at the cps website which deal with this.
I am refraining from advising you on the s4 because you have a lawyer but do please ask him or her how you can be cautioned for something you do not admit.