Cycling and drinking, should we do it

[Profpointy]

As usual we have some cyclists defending their corner in self-righteous fashion where they can do no wrong whilst wishing eternal damnation on motorists.

I accept that errant cyclists probably would cause less of a problem than a similarly errant motorist.

However, *issed cyclist swerves across road, car swerves mounts pavement squashes several people etc.

How would the actions of that cyclist be defensible?

If a cyclist uses the road then they ought to be subject to the same alcohol/drug laws as other road users. I remember something on here a while back advocating zero tolerance on these matters for motorists and there was much vocal support for this - same rules apply both ways in my view.

At some point the cycling anti-motorist brigade needs to get off their high horse and recognise that the whole world really does not revolve around them and that life is a two way street. As in all things in life their have to be mutually beneficial solutions to all problems.

just to check you actually mean what you say - are you really arguing that the alcohol limit for cycling - a 10kg vehicle capabably of what 20 or 25mph (for normal people) and which requires very modest skill to operate safely, should be the same as iperating a 1500kg car capable of well over 100mph, requiring significantly greater skills and observation / alertness to drive.

What about pedestrians ? What limit should they operate under - and just as likely to cause the innocent car driver to swerve into the bus queue. Hey, what about (hopefully sober) children running out without looking.

Riding drunk is illegal (not unreasonable) - but same rules / limits - really?

 

[Profpointy]

So you have access to a database of every accident that has ever happened involving a cyclist and can 100% rule this out?

Given the anti-cycling agendas of many I do think we.might have heard.of it

EDIT I might add for comparison that we have a couple of reports of people being eaten by tigers each year in the uk - but we don't hear of the deaths caused by drunken cyclists (and we would) this suggests that the drunk cyclist carnage scenario is less commin than tiger predation in the UK

 

[Profpointy]

A I said I don't know but it could as could a whole number of other similar examples. It's not raining hard enough today to try to list them all.

In the whole history of the world can you imagine that not one single *issed cyclist has ever screwed up and caused a serious incident?

... so - are you conceding it's extremely rare at least?

 

[SpokeyDokey]

OMG, I seem to have stumbled into the First Form Debating Society practice session.

(Sorry Prof, that was addressed at the previous posts.)

Apologies TMN - I must try harder to reach your illustrious heights. One for around midnight on December 31st maybe?

 

[SpokeyDokey]

just to check you actually mean what you say - are you really arguing that the alcohol limit for cycling - a 10kg vehicle capabably of what 20 or 25mph (for normal people) and which requires very modest skill to operate safely, should be the same as iperating a 1500kg car capable of well over 100mph, requiring significantly greater skills and observation / alertness to drive.

What about pedestrians ? What limit should they operate under - and just as likely to cause the innocent car driver to swerve into the bus queue. Hey, what about (hopefully sober) children running out without looking.

Riding drunk is illegal (not unreasonable) - but same rules / limits - really?

So what are you saying there? The mg/ml limit should be mass related?

 

[Profpointy]

So what are you saying there? The mg/ml limit should be mass related?

not necessarily in those words or rules, but that's the spirit of it. The status quo in fact

edit - as I said upthread - rules / restrictions should be proportionate with likelihood of doing harm to others

 

[mjr]

Well, thanks for all of your opinions including one or two of you who admitted to riding whilst under the influence,

Riding after drinking alcohol (legal) is not the same as being unfit (illegal) although I realise some statements probably were admitting riding unfit.

These figures only include cyclists killed or injured in road accidents that were reported to the police. Many cyclist casualties are not reported to the police, even when the cyclist is inured badly enough to be taken to hospital. The figures also exclude cycling accidents that occur away from the road. Although the number of deaths is accurate, there could be two or three times as many seriously injured cyclists and double the number of slightly injured.

"There could be". There could be conclusive proof that I am God and it wouldn't show up in those figures. That is a silly argument that could be used to justify any mad claim to stupid people.

the point i was making is that a LOT of accidents / incidents involving cyclists don't even get reported to the police even if the injuries are bad enough to have the cyclist admitted to hospital (as per the article I linked to) so there are no records of a lot of incidents whether they involve alcohol or not.

That's not entirely true. It won't be in the police STATS19 returns, but the Hospital Episode Statistics will record mode of transport and whether the patient appeared intoxicated at admission (in the opinion of staff, not a police-style evidential test, so probably reports even more). HES isn't as easy to inspect as STATS19s, but I didn't find anyone reporting a significant number of drunk cycling injuries - is there any reason to suspect it's widespread? I suspect the inability to balance a bike if you're too drunk keeps numbers down.

 

[Milkfloat]

So you have access to a database of every accident that has ever happened involving a cyclist and can 100% rule this out?

All I ask from your database is some examples of a drunk cyclist killing anyone other than themselves.

 

[SpokeyDokey]

... so - are you conceding it's extremely rare at least?

I've never said otherwise. It was just an eg and there may be other eg's that are more common.

The principle is that cyclists 'under the influence' are a potential problem. I doubt very much whether a cyclist in this condition has never caused a serious accident or even non-serious. Makes drunk/drugged up cycling wrong in my book.

 

[SpokeyDokey]

not necessarily in those words or rules, but that's the spirit of it. The status quo in fact

edit - as I said upthread - rules / restrictions should be proportionate with likelihood of doing harm to others

Ok. I hear you.

Slightly OT but sort of on principle. How would those who are in favour of a proportional limit on alcohol/drug levels vis-à-vis scale of the potential consequences feel if I were to say that eg motorway speed limits should be variable too? As an eg: at about 2pm in the morning two Sundays ago, I was driving up to Carlisle on the M6 north of J36 and saw not one vehicle for over 20 minutes. So, as precisely no one was at risk apart from myself I could've nipped up the motorway considerably faster than the 70mph limit which (one must assume) takes into account an average level of traffic with a greater level of risk?

 

[young Ed]

i would suggest that it be an offence if cyclists are drunk enough to be causing a a risk to other members of the public. although this would be hard to prove when they become a risk to others and now days it would seem that nothing can be left to the discretion or judgement of the individual copper

personally i VERY rarely drink (even though we home brew beer and at current have about 40 pints in storage soon to be about 100 i think!) and wouldn't mind the law to be changed to ZERO tolerance on any alcohol when driving and even cycling
i know personally on the rare occasion i do have a pint i wouldn't dream of getting behind the wheel of a tractor!

Ah, just noticed your blog was from September 2014, did you ever finish it?

unfortunately not, i guess i just ended up side tracked with other stuff and working etc :/
just remembered that i went on about a 4 day canoeing trip this summer so will do a post on that soon, i can send you a PM when i've got it posted if you like?
Cheers Ed

 

[Markymark]

Ok. I hear you.

Slightly OT but sort of on principle. How would those who are in favour of a proportional limit on alcohol/drug levels vis-à-vis scale of the potential consequences feel if I were to say that eg motorway speed limits should be variable too? As an eg: at about 2pm in the morning two Sundays ago, I was driving up to Carlisle on the M6 north of J36 and saw not one vehicle for over 20 minutes. So, as precisely no one was at risk apart from myself I could've nipped up the motorway considerably faster than the 70mph limit which (one must assume) takes into account an average level of traffic with a greater level of risk?

I have no issue with variable speed limits. In fact they're quite common on motorways. They are regularly adjusted to the conditions, typically between 40 and 70 mph. It seems a very sensible approach to me.

 

[Ian H]

There are sensible limits for alcohol and different activities. I might cycle after a couple of pints but I wouldn't use a chainsaw. We have a regular weekly pub-run, anything between 8 and 20 miles each way. No one has died.

 

[glenn forger]

I cycled while drunk and using a chainsaw. Four people died.

 

[steve50]

i would suggest that it be an offence if cyclists are drunk enough to be causing a a risk to other members of the public. although this would be hard to prove when they become a risk to others and now days it would seem that nothing can be left to the discretion or judgement of the individual copper

personally i VERY rarely drink (even though we home brew beer and at current have about 40 pints in storage soon to be about 100 i think!) and wouldn't mind the law to be changed to ZERO tolerance on any alcohol when driving and even cycling
i know personally on the rare occasion i do have a pint i wouldn't dream of getting behind the wheel of a tractor!



unfortunately not, i guess i just ended up side tracked with other stuff and working etc :/
just remembered that i went on about a 4 day canoeing trip this summer so will do a post on that soon, i can send you a PM when i've got it posted if you like?
Cheers Ed

yeah cheers, I have to agree with you on the point of zero tolerance, I also think the law should be changed when it comes to cyclists and drinking. I bet the stats would soon change if plod started breathalysing wobbly cyclists on the way home from the pub or cyclists involved in rta's. The main argument for cyclists in this thread is there are no records or statistics relating to cyclists and alcohol incidents so therefore it doesn't happen,a very blinkered view imo.