Cycling death

[Cab]

In my opinion and experience the safest place to be is one or two cars back from the front. I think that is common sense.
ASLs are rarely designed with safety in mind. I have seen many that encourage and direct you to left filter where it is downright dangerous. So I wouldn't read too much into the fact that ASLs exist therefore it is the safest.

Generally agree with you there; left filtering cycle lanes are great if you're turning left and none of the vehicles you're filtering past are turning the same way. Otherwise, get into the lane and claim a safer position.

 

[magnatom]

Otherwise, why is an ASL not safe? If it only makes the cyclist visible then it's a good thing, if it allows them to take a primary position when called for then it's a good thing as well, both things are what they're there for after all surely?

It's not the ASL that is unsafe it is the quest to get to the ASL that is unsafe. More often than not if you are passing a queue it is safer to stop one or two cars back That eliminates any possibility of conflict with the front car/van/lorry/bus if the lights change as you approach, or if a driver decides 'bu**er it I'm not waiting for the lights to change (which I have seen happen!).

I also find it antagonises drivers less if you hang a car or two back. I'm not sure why.

Of course if you are first to a junction then an ASL is generally the best place to be.

I would prefer recessed stop lines that are areas 10m back from the stop line that are designated for cyclists, which would encourage cyclists to hang back from the front. Cars would have to keep out of them. Of course this would fail for a number of practical reasons (differing length of vehicles, being ignored etc)

 

[Tynan]

ah, I see, all about judging the lights then, these days in London they're red for a real long time

the traffic I see is so slow and ponderous that there's always shags of time to react, yes, arriving at the ASL as the lights change is a bad thing and to be avoided but it happens so rarely that I don't see as a reason to not go for the ASL/Front every time it's feasible

I'd certainly not try it if the left hand lane is a left turn/straight ahead lane and the vehicles on my right are indicating, now and then there's a problem with vehicles that fail to indicate until they see me stop alongside them (when I don't think I'll make the ASL/Front) as the first vehicle that won't be turning left

I'm guessing in that situation they're suddenly remembering why they're supposed to indicate

Left hand turn lane then get in the right lane early, natch

 

[magnatom]

ah, I see, all about judging the lights then, these days in London they're red for a real long time

Almost, however, as I said you can never be sure that drivers will always wait until the lights change! (I know it is rare but it does happen). Light phases have also known to change from time to time.

I just don't see why I should go to the front when it is safer and easier to hang back a couple of cars. It won't slow you down and reduces the risk of conflict IMO of course!

 

[Jacomus-rides-Gen]

Tynan, something you have kept saying has tweaked my interest - you have said a few times that you prefer to be out in front in the ASL, and not have to keep up with traffic accross the junction in the traffic flow. Primary is very hard to keep in London traffic.

Just wondering what your acceleration is like?

I know you ride an old mtb at the moment, whilst waiting for the interminable process of insurance settlement, so I'm guessing you aren't as fast off the line or when moving as you were previously.

I only mention this because having ridden around town a bit with my gf, I find it so much harder to claim a good road position and manage the cars around me when travelling at her speeds. On my own on my roadbike I can outaccelerate everything but scooters and motorbikes, and in London find it easy enough to ride at around the 25mph mark.

This means I am able to take a very wide lane position if I want, and can accelerate with traffic up to around 25mph so feel happy sitting in the RH wheel track, especially in heavy traffic.

Dunno, maybe I've got it wrong, but I think bike + rider performance has a lot to do with how they interract with traffic and how they use cycle farcilities.

 

[tdr1nka]

I'm hear you Cab,

the subject of the highway code change, although I believe they would like us to use as many 'dedicted cycle facilities' in the course of our journeys, this does include bus lanes. Thankfully New Cross Gate in London, where I live is surrounded by bus lanes and no stopping red routes, these and my selection of rat runs keep me and my daughter off the main roads as much as possible.

It's not a change they will have much luck Policing. I once asked a Police woman(who had flagged me down and warned me that I needed a fixed front light and faced a £20 on the spot for not having one), wether she had seen my flashing LED light as I had come up the road. She said she had seen me and that's how she flagged me down in time. She had a little think and sharply sent me on my way.

The only way I can see these laws being enforced is with a tazer and impounding or distroying peoples rides.

T x

 

[cupoftea]

I would have thought sitting in a queue of traffic is possibly one of the most dangerous things you could do, you're trusting that all of the cars around you have seen you and that they don't view you as a convenient gap.

Moreover if there is more than one lane you’ll anger the drivers behind you as they see the lane next to them “speed” off and a gap appear in front of you, even if it’s only for 30 yards.

This might be ok in some places but not all. Surely the safest thing would be to move to the very back of the queue?

So Cabs you feel that if the resent amendment to the Highway Code had gone through it would have been sensible to break that law? Why?

 

[Cab]

I would have thought sitting in a queue of traffic is possibly one of the most dangerous things you could do, you're trusting that all of the cars around you have seen you and that they don't view you as a convenient gap.

If you're in the traffic then the cars around you will see you; put yourself right in front of one car and right behind another, be visible, and you'll usually be seen. I'm not sure why you believe otherwise.

Moreover if there is more than one lane you’ll anger the drivers behind you as they see the lane next to them “speed” off and a gap appear in front of you, even if it’s only for 30 yards.

The usefulness of maintaining primary position is well established; its almost a cliche to say it, but you really must procure for yourself a copy of 'Cyclecraft', and read all about why this is usually the safest road position.

This might be ok in some places but not all. Surely the safest thing would be to move to the very back of the queue?

There are some places where primary position isn't safest. In the situation raised though (in traffic), its usually the best place to be, unless you're intent on filtering outside or inside of the traffic, but I reccomend that unless you're competent at making eye contact with people on the road and getting back in to primary, you shouldn't do this.

So Cabs you feel that if the resent amendment to the Highway Code had gone through it would have been sensible to break that law? Why?

I gave details for an organised, thought out campaign of civil disobedience; its a way of breaking the law while acknowledging what the law actually is. It is breaking the law and making it plain that you're doing so. It is challinging those who have implemented a bad law to change it. It is not breaking the law for your own convenienve. More to the point, in such a scenario I'm suggesting breaking the law to improve overall safety, which is entirely unanalogous with (for example), red light jumping.

 

[BentMikey]

*eyes glaze over* at long posts like that.

 

[cupoftea]

I'm sorry cab but I've not spent much time in Cambridge but do you have any major roads?

You see in London where most people drive like idiots and try to ignore cyclists, we have quiet a number of major roads where sitting in the middle of the traffic would be suicide, in any position, carrying a lighthouse and an uzi.

I'm undoubtedly wrong but you’re advice is not sensible or practical in multilane traffic systems. I negotiate a number of 3 and 4 lane roundabouts, not to mention the Stratford one way system.

Hoping that the traffic is going to see you, is like a cyclist riding up the inside and expecting the lorry to see them.

 

[Cab]

I'm sorry cab but I've not spent much time in Cambridge but do you have any major roads?

Plenty. Plenty more in other cities I've lived and worked in too.

You see in London where most people drive like idiots and try to ignore cyclists, we have quiet a number of major roads where sitting in the middle of the traffic would be suicide, in any position, carrying a lighthouse and an uzi.

(emphasis added)

In the middle of the traffic?

Get Cyclecraft. Read it.

 

[BentMikey]

I'd second that. Contrary to cupoftea, the more busy and complex the junction, the more likely I'll be right out and part of the traffic. To hide at the side around Vauxhall would be foolish.

 

[tdr1nka]

In London there a lovely green coloured boxes at traffic lights, the width of the road and with a cycle symbol on them just so we know where we should be. Mostly, at school run and rush hour, cagers take no notice of them and use them as their ASL's. Unless the roads are gridlocked I tend to hang back when I see lights ahead go red and stay in the traffic, then once past the junction I move as far left as is poss and let the traffic filter past me.
On the trike I just ride like I'm in a small car and if I'm first away at an ASL I signal and hold that lane until such time as I can edge over safely to let traffic pass or it chooses to overtake me. If I didn't hold the lane my journey would be spent hopping in and out of spaces between parked cars and getting nowhere fast. Trikes get a bit sh*te to handle if the camber of the road is too steep so staying in place avoids this also. No matter the principles of road etiquette, ASL's, Highway Code, etc, being visible(in dress and positioning)is, to me, the the single most important part of urban riding.

T x

 

[tdr1nka]

oh and self adhesive punture patches.

 

[gambatte]

I wonder how many often a drivers actually ticketed for passing the ASL?
I don't know of 1 that has been. Maybe if a few drivers got the potential 3 points the ASLs would get a bit more respect?