Cycling death
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people starting in front of an empty ASL is no part of my argument
I think the safest place to start from a set of lights is the front, that's common sense and vouched for by the appearance of ASLs, so that's where I'll start unless it obviously impractical to do so
If when I get there, I have to advance my normal position, for the reasons given earlier, I will, to the benefit of every party involved
I really don't see those as in any way contentious positions to take
people jumping red lights and crossing the junction are a danger to others and themselves, it's a serious road offence imho and the first thing regular people say to me when I mention I cycle to work
people starting a few feet over a stop line for good reason is no offence worth mentioning, the two things are incomparable, the only reasons they ever come up is people trying to muddy the water on rlj
I'm never happy with starting anywhere other than the front, I start in traffic when I have to but it relies on some common sense from surrounding vehicles in the second of starting to move, primary is not an option when filtering in very heavy slow moving traffic
Take your ultra conservative line by all means cab but don't try to enforce it on others who might be riding in very different circumstances
I have no idea where 'virtue' came from, not me
I think the safest place to start from a set of lights is the front, that's common sense and vouched for by the appearance of ASLs, so that's where I'll start unless it obviously impractical to do so
If when I get there, I have to advance my normal position, for the reasons given earlier, I will, to the benefit of every party involved
I really don't see those as in any way contentious positions to take
people jumping red lights and crossing the junction are a danger to others and themselves, it's a serious road offence imho and the first thing regular people say to me when I mention I cycle to work
people starting a few feet over a stop line for good reason is no offence worth mentioning, the two things are incomparable, the only reasons they ever come up is people trying to muddy the water on rlj
I'm never happy with starting anywhere other than the front, I start in traffic when I have to but it relies on some common sense from surrounding vehicles in the second of starting to move, primary is not an option when filtering in very heavy slow moving traffic
Take your ultra conservative line by all means cab but don't try to enforce it on others who might be riding in very different circumstances
I have no idea where 'virtue' came from, not me
ASLs are a tricky one, partly because they are usually paired with a short bicycle lane on the left hand side, which encourages people to filter up the left hand side, and then pull across. If you're turning right, or if you're going straight on but the left hand lane is for turning left only, you could be in an awkward position if the lights change before you hit the ASL. This could probably be solved by an additional cycle lane between each of the lanes, but that has a whole load of problems of it's own.
Starting from behind a car does mean that the car behind you doesn't feel like he could just zoom off into the distance if you weren't there.....
Having said that, I use ASLs a fair bit, but it depends on the situation, and, ultimately, this is the solution - allow people to use common sense wrt cycle facilities on the road.
Starting from behind a car does mean that the car behind you doesn't feel like he could just zoom off into the distance if you weren't there.....
Having said that, I use ASLs a fair bit, but it depends on the situation, and, ultimately, this is the solution - allow people to use common sense wrt cycle facilities on the road.
Jacomus-rides-Gen
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- Guildford / London
mrben said:
The trouble is, there is a large difference between what is common sense to an experienced, dedicated cyclist, and what is common sense to a less experienced cyclist.
M. Experience - "Use the feeder lane into that ASL? I'd much rather wait a car back and cross with the traffic, this is a dangerous junction with lots of vehicles turning left."
M. Under-Experienced - "It is very handy there is a feeder lane into the ASL, this is a dangerous junction with lots of vehicles turning left."
Both cyclists will be using common sense. One will be safer than the other though, through experience and maybe Cyclecraft and/or internet fora where this issue is disscussed constantly.
Tynan said:
In my opinion and experience the safest place to be is one or two cars back from the front. I think that is common sense.
ASLs are rarely designed with safety in mind. I have seen many that encourage and direct you to left filter where it is downright dangerous. So I wouldn't read too much into the fact that ASLs exist therefore it is the safest.
But then I have said this before and possible debated this with you Tynan. I don't think we will ever agree on this one
"magnatom" said:
From Whiteinch into Central Station. Dumbarton Road through into Finnieston, then cut down under the Expressway to Lancefield Quay and then pop up onto Argyle Street just before the station. Way home is basically the same, except I cycle along Argyle Street as far as the Kingston Bridge before turning down to the river.
Morning run is between 7-7.30am, evening from 5.40pm to 6.10pm. Usually takes me about 20-25 minutes on a borrowed (too small) Raleigh mountain bike with front shocks and knobbly tyres (weighs a tonne
) and a big laptop rucksack on my back (getting my excuses in early) Coming in there's virtually no traffic - worst bit is getting into the right hand lane at the split by Kelvingrove Art Gallery. Coming home the junction at the squinty bridge is a PITA for the same reason - timing the move into the right hand lane.
mrben said:From Whiteinch into Central Station. Dumbarton Road through into Finnieston, then cut down under the Expressway to Lancefield Quay and then pop up onto Argyle Street just before the station. Way home is basically the same, except I cycle along Argyle Street as far as the Kingston Bridge before turning down to the river.
Morning run is between 7-7.30am, evening from 5.40pm to 6.10pm. Usually takes me about 20-25 minutes on a borrowed (too small) Raleigh mountain bike with front shocks and knobbly tyres (weighs a tonne) and a big laptop rucksack on my back (getting my excuses in early)
Coming in there's virtually no traffic - worst bit is getting into the right hand lane at the split by Kelvingrove Art Gallery. Coming home the junction at the squinty bridge is a PITA for the same reason - timing the move into the right hand lane.
We will cross paths a little at Whiteinch. I come down via broomhill to the roundabout under the expressway and then travel along Dumbarton Road to the cycle tunnel entrance. I am later than you in the morning and earlier than you at night
. Have a look at my videos (see my signature) you will recognise some of the sites!Yes I know the Kelvingrove split. There always seem to be a fair amount of buses there to contend with.
Waiting in primary, I agree although that's not my preferred position, but again, in proper London rush hour traffic it's rarely an option
If people position themselves to the left of a left hand turn lane and pay no attention to signals of surrounding vehicles then there's no real hope for them is there?
Otherwise, why is an ASL not safe? If it only makes the cyclist visible then it's a good thing, if it allows them to take a primary position when called for then it's a good thing as well, both things are what they're there for after all surely?
Mind you, I'm for bike lanes at the side of the road so what would I know
If people position themselves to the left of a left hand turn lane and pay no attention to signals of surrounding vehicles then there's no real hope for them is there?
Otherwise, why is an ASL not safe? If it only makes the cyclist visible then it's a good thing, if it allows them to take a primary position when called for then it's a good thing as well, both things are what they're there for after all surely?
Mind you, I'm for bike lanes at the side of the road so what would I know
Tynan said:
Whether I'm in a stop box or not, if I'm waiting at the lights and another cyclist goes out in front of me it isn't for safety reasons. And it happens day in, day out. Cyclists doing this are not thinking 'I know, I'll get out in front of that other chap, I'll be safer', they're thinking 'I'll wait out there because it'll save me a moment'. They know its a law that isn't enforced so they break it, consciously, knowing they can get away with it.
I think that the safest place is where I'm visible and legal, I don't see any real advantage in winding people up by doing something illegal just for my own convenience. I can be visible by claiming my space on the road in a legal position, I don't find that I need to break the law (except in very odd situations).
You could claim a safe road position in the lane of traffic, you choose instead to break the law.
They could also claim a safe road postion in the lane of traffic, they choose instead to break the law. Like you do, they just take it a few steps further.
You could cycle safely within the law, you choose not to because there is an illegal alternative that you see as more convenient. Don't try to wrap it up as a safety thing, because it blatantly is not. Or are you unable to claim primary position for some unknown reason?
Hogwash. Primary is the only option when in very heavy slow moving traffic, take primary and keep it, reclaim it whenever you might be about to lose it, make eye contact with motorists to get back into primary where you've lost it and need to reassert your road space.
Very different circumstances to those which I have encountered in every British town and city I've ridden in? Sorry, sounds to me like you're picking an illegal option because you can't maintain an assertive road position, or because you don't see occasionally losing a few seconds while you regain a good road position as an appealing option.
Sorry, I don't see that as much better than those who believe they should be able to speed in their cars because it is inconvenient not to.
