Cycling death

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I think this is semantics. Riding up the left of an HGV isn't 'asking' for trouble. It is significantly increasing your risk of trouble. Does that seem fair?
 

Tynan

Veteran
Location
e4
yes, it's the point I've been trying to make over and over again

do you lot think it means writing a polite letter to a truck driver to arrange an accident?

and it's still asking for trouble/accident as I understand it
 

BentMikey

Rider of Seolferwulf
Location
South London
Do you think truck drivers should look in their mirrors on both sides before moving off or turning? What do you think about cyclists who use ASL feeder lanes to get to the front of the queue?
 

Arch

Married to Night Train
Location
Salford, UK
Before this argument disappears up it's own...

<ahem>

Do we have any more info about the unfortunate incident that sparked the thread off?
 

Tynan

Veteran
Location
e4
BentMikey said:
Do you think truck drivers should look in their mirrors on both sides before moving off or turning? What do you think about cyclists who use ASL feeder lanes to get to the front of the queue?

Yes, of course, it's the law for all road users, do i think that all do? no

I filter to the front as long as the traffic isn't about to move off and leave me in a compromised position

and both questions are irrelevant imho, I'd never do anything that left me inside a HGV or bendy bus at a junction

I give both vehicles far more space that other vehicles at all times, because even well driven they're far more dangerous than other vehicles, more likely to not see you, harder to get away from in a crisis, more likely to badly hurt you
 

BentMikey

Rider of Seolferwulf
Location
South London
You're right, but that's because you ride defensively. You're wrong in suggesting that the girl was asking for it, because she was riding quite legally and to a degree as encouraged by the road markings and society's current belief that bicycles should stay to the left. You're saying that someone who is not riding defensively, is "asking for it", unless I've misunderstood.
 

domtyler

Über Member
Come on, let's drop the "asking for it" stuff and concentrate on the real issue(s) shall we?

As a cyclists we have to compensate for others mistakes or we die, end of story.
 

Tynan

Veteran
Location
e4
BM, you can stick to what I post if you genuinely want to know what I think

Anyone cycling up the inside of long vehicles at junctions is asking to be killed, yes, I think that

'asking for it' meaning you're doing nothing to prevent and indeed helping something bad and likely to happen to you

in no way whatsoever do I want people to die on the roads, I'm merely expressing the opinion that cyclists have the power to prevent certain sorts of set piece accidents from happening to them, I get annoyed by the assumption by many that the cyclist is automatically free of all blame, responsibility and was helpless to prevent an accident, and worse I think it's unhelpful to promote the idea, inadvertently or not, that shoot just happens, you have no responsibility to protect yourself
 

BentMikey

Rider of Seolferwulf
Location
South London
My problem lies only with you focusing all the blame on the cyclist, when first and foremost in the specific example we're talking about, it's the lorry driver who zarked up. Defensive riding will only ever come second to your responsibility for the safety of others, and is there only to take account of other peoples' mistakes.

Oh, and I'm perhaps the last person on here you should blame for claiming the cyclist is always free from blame.
 

Tynan

Veteran
Location
e4
will you do a great favour and read all my posts again before telling me what I'm posting?

I try to post clearly and carefully, the drivers blame has never been an issue, I've been addressing what she could have done to prevent it happening at all

And I haven't accused anyone in particular of claiming others are to blame for cyclists' accidents, certainly not you

'Defensive riding will only ever come second to your responsibility for the safety of others, and is there only to take account of other peoples' mistakes.'

not at all sure what point that's supposed to make
 

CotterPin

Senior Member
Location
London
Tynan said:
BM, you can stick to what I post if you genuinely want to know what I think

Anyone cycling up the inside of long vehicles at junctions is asking to be killed, yes, I think that

'asking for it' meaning you're doing nothing to prevent and indeed helping something bad and likely to happen to you

in no way whatsoever do I want people to die on the roads, I'm merely expressing the opinion that cyclists have the power to prevent certain sorts of set piece accidents from happening to them, I get annoyed by the assumption by many that the cyclist is automatically free of all blame, responsibility and was helpless to prevent an accident, and worse I think it's unhelpful to promote the idea, inadvertently or not, that shoot just happens, you have no responsibility to protect yourself

Tynan,
You're right - the cyclist does have the power to prevent certain types of incidents occurring... if they know that their action is going to cause that incident.

Trouble is, as others have others have pointed out we put bike lanes down the left hand side of the road, positively encouraging cyclists to use them. You sound like you're an experienced cyclist so you know when to avoid these facilities. Somebody has just decided to take up cycling - possibly they have seen new cycle lanes appearing everywhere. They have bought themselves a new bike and jump on it one day.

"This is great," they think, "all this green paint just for me to ride on."

No-one's told them to use cycle facilities with caution. They don't spend their time in fora like this. They've never bought "Cycle Craft" - they've never heard of "Cycle Craft". They haven't had any training. After all, they learned to ride a bike when a kid so it can't be that difficult. Okay, so there's more traffic but so long as they stay on the green paint and over to the left, close to kerb, they'll be okay.

And you can finish the rest of the story off...
 

Tynan

Veteran
Location
e4
yes, I know, of course I know

but an adult should be able to at least get an inkling of the hazards, far more would be killed otherwise, and they have to take at least some responsibility for their actions, I respect those that say they wouldn't cycle because of the danger, it's there and it's real, people happy to bumble along are a real danger to themselves and other road users to a lessor degree

anyhow, flicked through the ES just now, female cyclist killed at Streatham Hill, you guessed it, lorry turning left at a junction

there's a quote from another Tesco lorry driver

'I only pray that I am never involved in such a tragic accident while trying to do my job. I must admit it worries you all the time in London, particularly near bus stops, Tubes and traffic lights'
 

gambatte

Middle of the pack...
Location
S Yorks
This is why I hate cycle lanes. New section in Sheffield, which I'd ridden about a dozen times before they opened it. Its got a cycle lane the road becomes 3 lane (4 if you include the cycle lane) with an ASL at the lights. This is where I want to be in the right hand lane.

First time with traffic, felt like the cycle lane 'held' me to the left.;);):tongue: wierd
 
I don't think that the photograph in thisislondon has anything to do with this particular junction.

I think that the truck would have been turning left from the A23 on to the South Circular. The design of the A23 southbound isn't great. It broadens to the left just before the junction, but it would be difficult for a large vehicle to go over to the left, and then turn left into the narrower South Circular. There is no cycle lane, nor, really, is there much scope for putting one in.

This is a dangerous junction, and there are half a dozen ways of getting killed on it. I've been crossing it for about thirtyfive years, and I confess I don't like doing it southbound, and I'm not wild about it eastbound.

Somebody suggested New Park Road, and I'd go along with that, although the right turn into New Park Road is iffy. New Park Road would have been no use to the victim, who, one presumes, was going on to Leigham Park Road and turning left there.

At the A23/A205 the lanes curve left and right, and traffic is changing from lane to lane. Cyclists going south stay to the left because they can see the bus lane on the other side of the junction.

It's easy to say - stick in the traffic, and stay away from the left hand kerb - and easy enough to do if you're practiced and confident. Sadly not every cyclist is practiced and confident, and this is a difficult bit of road to be confident on.

This junction isn't as obviously dangerous as the Pentonville Road junction that saw a cycling fatality earlier this year, but, however belatedly, it does need looking at.
 

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