Cycling death

[Tynan]

Yes, but in the Emma Foa case, it was shown in court that she was visible in the driver's mirrors, but he failed to see her because he didn't look.

http://www.movingtargetzine.com/article/more-on-emma-foa

'had he been paying attention to the road, instead of looking at page 3 or whatever it was.'

nice balanced piece, so did the cycle route run across the junction? in my experience they stop, in an attempt to make the cyclist realise that trundling ahead blindly isn't advised

anyone that drives in London traffic will know how much observation is needed, I reckon driving large vehicles in London rush hour wold be quite an education

 

[simon l& and a half]

in Emma Foa's case the driver accepted that he was looking at a piece of paper, and didn't check his mirror. What's your problem with that?

 

[Buffalo Bill]

'had he been paying attention to the road, instead of looking at page 3 or whatever it was.'

nice balanced piece, so did the cycle route run across the junction? in my experience they stop, in an attempt to make the cyclist realise that trundling ahead blindly isn't advised

anyone that drives in London traffic will know how much observation is needed, I reckon driving large vehicles in London rush hour wold be quite an education

I wasn't attempting to be balanced - that was a cheap crack, and I am sure that driver was very upset by it.

Seeing as you asked about the cycle lane and the junction:

http://www.movingtargetzine.com/article/the-junction-where-emma-foa-was-killed

 

[Tynan]

that link's a well written piece isn't it?

what does it say about getting yourself inside a truck at a junction?

frankly I'd never ever ever be there

for 37 seconds

sorry but it's asking for it to happen, I'm not excusing the driver but there's two parties to that accident

 

[BentMikey]

Yes, but Tynan, you are this: WRONG.

Why? Because there are two types of accident avoidance here. Defensive riding is exactly what you're talking about, and that's only ever a secondary effort. The person bringing all the danger and IMO driving like an irresponsible 5 year old was the lorry driver. He is the one with no excuse, no looking, and driving without due care and attention. It was his primary responsibility to look out for other road users and he didn't.

All this is of course only speculation and my opinion because I wasn't there.

 

[Tynan]

why am I wrong?

I posted that I wasn't excusing the driver, yeah?

And others have repeated posted that she was inside that truck for 37 seconds?

Would you do that?

I wouldn't, I've got a healthy scepticism of trucks' field of vision and position myself accordingly

and that cycle lane does stop before the junction starts doesn't it? Suggesting that the happy zone of safety is ended and you're on your tod from now on

 

[Buffalo Bill]

why am I wrong?

I posted that I wasn't excusing the driver, yeah?

And others have repeated posted that she was inside that truck for 37 seconds?

Would you do that?

I wouldn't, I've got a healthy scepticism of trucks' field of vision and position myself accordingly

and that cycle lane does stop before the junction starts doesn't it? Suggesting that the happy zone of safety is ended and you're on your tod from now on

You obviously didn't read the piece or look at the photo very carefully.

a. the lane was put in AFTER the collision.

b. the lane now ends in an ASL. If you wait in the ASL on the left, you will be in exactly the spot that drivers cannot see into without the DOBLI mirror ie in front and to the left of the driver's cab.

Asking for it? As a rape victim who was wearing a short skirt after dark was asking for it? Ms Foa was wearing a helmet, and hi-vis vest. Not the actions of someone that was reckless.

 

[Tetedelacourse]

Blah blah blah about the blame for Emma Foa's demise.

Just sadness for the loss of the latest cyclist to be killed by a motorist.

As Bentmikey points out, it's likely to be the driver that's to blame. I think Yenrod's reaction is understandable.

 

[Tynan]

the bloke says he doesn't know wether it was put in since doesn't he?

and regardless of ASL, I position myself far enough forward that I'm visible from the cab, it's not rocket science

asking for it? nice use of the rape analogy, jeez

 

[Buffalo Bill]

the bloke says he doesn't know wether it was put in since doesn't he?

and regardless of ASL, I position myself far enough forward that I'm visible from the cab, it's not rocket science

asking for it? nice use of the rape analogy, jeez

It says:

"Updated
According to Camden Cyclists newsletter of Feb 07, the junction has been redesigned to prevent the kind of thing happening again, and the placement of the ASL is part of that."

You said that the lane finishes at a point that lets you know that you are on your own. Now you say that the ASL is irrelevant. Which one is it?

'Asking for it' were your words. Someone is dead, and you suggested that their actions were asking for it. If there is a nice use of words going on here, I would say that it is yours.

 

[Tynan]

if you want a row about that phrase, quote it in context

I didn't say the ASL was irrelevant, I did say that if the truck is right up on the stop line, I'd position myself further forward to be in his field of vision, that's simple common sense and I probably do that every single trip at some point, under no circumstances would I leave myself close to a HGV at lights

as for 'asking for it', if I actually wanted to get myself killed by a large vehicle how would I go about it?

I'd position myself inside long/large vehicles at junctions, and inside those vehicles approaching junctions, HGVs, bendy buses etc etc, I reckon I could get myself killed or badly injured inside a month, easy

that's the context I used 'asking for it' in and you know it

 

[domtyler]

There is nothing to debate here I see it.

Of course it will turn out to be the motorists fault, we all know that, but until we get the full details you just shouldn't say it.

As cyclists we go out on the roads in the knowledge that even if we never make a mistake we could still be wiped out by an inattentive motorist. We have to do what we can to counter this by using road positioning, if we don't the risks start to multiply rapidly.

 

[BentMikey]

*shakes head* Failing to ride defensively is not asking for it, especially when cycle lanes and ASL feeder lanes encourage cyclists to ride up the left of HGVs. Tynan, just because you know better doesn't mean a cyclist is asking for it going up the left of a lorry. I think Bill's rape analogy was spot on.

 

[Maz]

I think Bill's rape analogy was spot on.

Interesting. I thought it was way OTT.

 

[Tynan]

always silly to escalate debates with emotive and even hysterical language

if you think riding up the inside of hgvs approaching a junction isn't asking to have an accident then fine, we differ, get out there and have fun at junctions

I dare say in the ideal world where everyone drives properly and no-one makes mistakes, cycles can bumble along without a care in the world

In the real world, cyclists that ride into junction without considering whether the vehicle(s) to their right are about to turn left are going to have far more accidents then those that do consider it

And if they do that with HGVs and bendy buses then they're going to have far more serious and even fatal accidents

Surely no-one is arguing with that?

And as such, such cyclists are having more accidents as a direct result of their cycling, she didn't actually ask to be killed, of course she didn't, but her actions put her in harm's way

sad but true in my opinion