Cyclist killed in road rage incident

[magnatom]

Why have you asked Linf to stop thinking about what happened and then proceeded to give your own version?

No. This is not my version. I am showing that there is significant uncertainly in what happened from the reporting, therefore, blaming the cyclist, suggesting if it should be murder or manslaughter etc is impossible as we don't have enough facts. I'm just suggesting that we should wait until we have enough facts which we certainly don't have now.

 

[magnatom]

So you are blaming the newspaper report now and not Linfs take on things?

Lee, your obviously in full troll mode now.

Let me explain once and once only. I have been in the papers a number of times (work and helmet camera related). On each occasion significant mistakes have been made in the reporting. Therefore, I appreciate that newspaper reporting is not about accuracy, but about having an exciting story that will encourage people to buy more papers. Therefore, at the early stage in an investigation you have to be especially careful in believing what you read. I'm sure Linf knows this full well, however he decided to take the papers and his own version of events as fact. They are not. Therefore, speculation at this stage is just, speculation. Lets wait for the facts and, as I said earlier, lets hope that justice can be done, whatever, as a result of the FACTS, that may be.

 

[very-near]

Murder infers the driver took the vehicle onto the road with intent to take a life. The most he could be charged with is manslaughter as he will argue that his actions were purely a reaction to the cyclist taking his mirror off IMO.

I guess if you are going to argue to the toss with someone in control of a tonne and a half of motorised metal, make sure that you have a get out route, or you are in charge of a larger lump of motorised metal.

Taking a wing mirror off someones car will cost them £150-£250+ to replace nowadays. Whilst I can't understand why the driver managed to lose it in such a big way, I can understand why he was upset when the rider made off afterwards.

Without the detail of what led up to the cyclist taking the mirror off, we have no idea of where the aggression originated from.

Another life lost on the roads for such a stupid reason - such a waste

No it is not 'a fairly minor offence'. Taking the guys mirror off was 'a fairly minor offence', and the drivers reaction was unforgivable. I am not defending his extreme reaction to this and hope his sentence reflects what he has done - taken another life in a fit of temper, but murder is premeditated/planned, and that is not the actions of a road rage incident explained in this way.

Linf, just stop it. We do not have all of the evidence. From the reporting it is not clear what happened.

For all we know the driver might have passed the cyclist too close and caused the wing mirror to be knocked off when hitting the cyclist. The cyclist may have then tried to get away from the driver, seeing how angry he was, and the car may have chased him and mowed him down.

Would you agree that this is a possible scenario? Of course it may have been a militant cyclist who didn't like the look of the car and decided to hit the wing mirror off for fun. Or the reporting might be entirely wrong and the wing mirror may only have been folded back (amazingly papers get it wrong!!!).

So I suggest we leave this argument until the facts are know. Kapish?

This is what I said ^. With respect Tom, read again what I posted, and then slap me down if you think I was defending the drivers extreme reaction to damage to his car.

Cyclists and motorcyclists have been known to take mirrors off cars before now in a fit of temper when they have got into arguments whilst filtering (i've come close to it myself on more than one occasion when a driver has deliberately squeezed me out). It has been posted on here and m/cycling forums I use before now, so it is not unreasonable to consider this as a possible scenario in the altercation leading up to the driver going off on one.

Show me anywhere I have condoned the actions of the driver leading to the cyclists death, or called for a lesser sentence than could stick ?

The bottom line is that the cyclist wasn't a regular member here and the report was posted up on the boards for discussion.

 

[magnatom]

I just don't understand why you would have a go at Linf about speculating when you done it in the same post - ah well.

I speculated to point out the futility of speculating! Oh well...

 

[magnatom]

Linf. All I am saying is that we don't have the facts, so this thread (IMO) should be kept within the bounds of what we know, which at the moment is very little.

I never suggested that you were condoning anything (I think you've mixed me up with someone else), I'm just saying that speculation can be damaging and is in my opinion a bit disrespectful toward the dead cyclist (I'm sure you don't mean it as such, but it can come across that way).

I'm all for debates on the over-reaction that occur in road rage. It is a very interesting subject and certainly worthy of debate in a cycling forum where we can from time to time be the victims (and aggressors). I'm just suggesting that a new thread might be appropriate or we should wait until we know exactly what happened.

Feel free to disagree, but I just wanted to express my opinion which comes from some experience of the press.

 

[magnatom]

Oh and I shouldn't have written Kapish at the end. On reading it back it looks a bit condescending which wasn't intended (it was intended to be slightly light hearted).

 

[John the Monkey]

Oh and I shouldn't have written Kapish at the end.

Indeed you shouldn't.

Isn't the correct spelling "capisce?"

 

[very-near]

Linf. All I am saying is that we don't have the facts, so this thread (IMO) should be kept within the bounds of what we know, which at the moment is very little.

I never suggested that you were condoning anything (I think you've mixed me up with someone else), I'm just saying that speculation can be damaging and is in my opinion a bit disrespectful toward the dead cyclist (I'm sure you don't mean it as such, but it can come across that way).

I'm all for debates on the over-reaction that occur in road rage. It is a very interesting subject and certainly worthy of debate in a cycling forum where we can from time to time be the victims (and aggressors). I'm just suggesting that a new thread might be appropriate or we should wait until we know exactly what happened.

Feel free to disagree, but I just wanted to express my opinion which comes from some experience of the press.

On press distortion, I would 100% agree. They rarely get the facts right, and I've had a bit of contact locally with various issues over the years.

 

[magnatom]

Indeed you shouldn't.

Isn't the correct spelling "capisce?"

Nah, it's in the urban dictionary, so I must be right...

 

[mr_cellophane]

This line annoyed me

Police are still seeking witnesses to the accident

Which definition was that reporter using

Definitions of accident on the Web:

• an unfortunate mishap; especially one causing damage or injury
• anything that happens suddenly or by chance without an apparent cause; "winning the lottery was a happy accident"; "the pregnancy was a stroke of bad luck"; "it was due to an accident or fortuity"
  

 

[Crankarm]

The hearing which is mentioned in this report is a preliminary hearing or can be a Plea and Case Management Hearing or essentially what used to be known as committal proceedings. The court will deal with the defendant's arrangements for representation or legal aid if applicable and then his application for bail which has been refused as the defendant has been charged with murder. The court may also be mindful that the defendant may breach bail conditions or abscond given the seriousness of the charge. Murder being the most serious indictable offence bail is seldom granted. At this hearing the prosecution counsel may make an early brief disclosure of evidence or summary of events to support the Crown's case against the defendant but more in relation to the charge and the consideration of bail. If the appearance is at a full plea and case management hearing which doesn't appear to be the case the defendant would be required to plead guilty or not guilty and a trial date would be set. However given the seriousness of the charge the magistrates court will only be able to deal with any representation order and bail and then send the case to Crown Court for trial.

Truly shocking. Just goes to show how careful one has to be cycling on the roads .

 

[Riding in Circles]

I don't know all the facts here but if you accidently knock someones wing mirror you should apologise and offer to pay if damage is done, if you pick a fight with a car you will lose, if you get angry with a car driver and he gets angry with you, a cyclist, then he has a bigger stick than you so you will lose, so it is best to not get into confrontation regardless of who is right or wrong as you, the cyclist are the most vulnerable in the given situation. Saying that, the driver needs to face a murder charge.

 

[Crankarm]

I don't know all the facts here but if you accidently knock someones wing mirror you should apologise and offer to pay if damage is done, if you pick a fight with a car you will lose, if you get angry with a car driver and he gets angry with you, a cyclist, then he has a bigger stick than you so you will lose, so it is best to not get into confrontation regardless of who is right or wrong as you, the cyclist are the most vulnerable in the given situation. Saying that, the driver needs to face a murder charge.

Looks like he is facing a murder charge as the article suggests. He wouldn't have been remanded in custody if he wasn't. Mind you he did also hand himself in albeit the next morning, but he also did leave the scene..... Providing the police and CPS gather sufficient evidence to convince a jury and don't mess the case up then he will be convicted of murder. I'm sure the defence will be provocation. Hopefully this won't amount to much and be rejected otherwise the charge could drop to manslaughter and hopefully not just causing death by dangerous driving or the less severe assaults of s.47 or s.20 Offence Against the Person Act. Would surely have to be at least the s.18 - with intent to cause wounding or grievous bodily harm if not murder. All depends on the strength of the evidence. Fingers crossed.

 

[Tynan]

intent for a charge of murder is satisfied by intent to inflict serious injury

so on paper murder fits

as it's a mandatory life sentence the courts tend to lower it to manslughter if there's any sort of reason to

 

[TwickenhamCyclist]

... if you pick a fight with a car you will lose, if you get angry with a car driver and he gets angry with you, a cyclist, then he has a bigger stick than you so you will lose, so it is best to not get into confrontation regardless of who is right or wrong ....

Have to disagree there mate - I’ve had several altercations with cars (and vans & buses for that matter) while on the bike – in every case they’ve come of worse for picking a fight with me – you might be more venerable, but you’re also fitter & more manoeuvrable