Cyclists' hearts: Why elite cyclists die in their sleep (7 min video)

[ColinJ]

Ok, I get that, so how does you hitting 199 mean your maximum is 202 or whatever. How does everyone measure busting a gut outside the lab?

All I could say for sure was that it was at least 199. The hill was a 25% gradient and I was frightened that I would come to a standstill and fall off my bike, so I think I held back 1% or 2% of effort. On The safety of a turbo trainer, I might have been able to push just a little harder.

TBH, I wasn't actually trying to hit my MHR. I was wearing a monitor to provide data for my girlfriend's university project and I was pretty shocked when I saw that reading. TBH, it scared me!

What fascinated me was that on my 5 hour ride my HR averaged about 155 bpm and only dropped below 150 bpm when I was freewheeling on descents.

 

[Slick]

All I could say for sure was that it was at least 199. The hill was a 25% gradient and I was frightened that I would come to a standstill and fall off my bike, so I think I held back 1% or 2% of effort. On The safety of a turbo trainer, I might have been able to push just a little harder.

TBH, I wasn't actually trying to hit my MHR. I was wearing a monitor to provide data for my girlfriend's university project and I was pretty shocked when I saw that reading. TBH, it scared me!

What fascinated me was that on my 5 hour ride my HR averaged about 155 bpm and only dropped below 150 bpm when I was freewheeling on descents.

Yeah, those numbers are more recognisable to me and what I do. I wore a fit bit for a while and I was comfortable up to around 180 to 185 but comfort is no measure of max. I wouldn't like to get anywhere near max, more for fear of having enough in the tank to get home.

 

[screenman]

My max in the testing was 189 my max on the top of a 90 second hill climb race was 191, which is what Peter Read said it would be.

 

[Ajax Bay]

[QUOTE 5123530, member: 9609"]but does that make the calculated max aerobic any more relevant?, since they can't predict MHR how can they accurately predict max aerobic ?
does the calculated point between max and resting not vary as much between individuals as it does with calculated max ?
seems pointless to know MHR even if it is measured professionally.
is there not a test for max aerobic
trying to establish max aerobic through max MHR seems as daft as[/QUOTE]
Any individual has an HRmax and a HRbasal ie taken at rest (best in bed contemplating the day (but not its excitement)).
You've used 'max aerobic'. I know this as HRAT - HR at anaerobic threshold (AT): roughly the HR an athlete can maintain for an hour. It is a percentage of the HR range (HRmax - HRbasal) and varies with individuals (as you say) but I think not as much as HRmax. I don't know what the mean percentage (in the athletic population) is but posit 85% and that won't be far (eg within an SD) off.
But most people do not have the motive/motivation to explore their HRmax ('cos it's hard hard) so to use the 80% effort to guide training intensity, a formula based on age is often used - and I've suggested the current 'best fit' one above (Nes et al).
I can't see a sprinter ever finding out their HRmax because a) they don't need to know - it will not inform their training and b) because they don't like to run further than 200m because after that racing starts hurting.
You can determine HRAT 'in a lab' using a treadmill and taking blood samples (base of thumbnail or earlobe) as the speed/gradient of the treadmill is cranked up (I did this in Walsall Uni(?) with Greg Whyte in charge (1998)) The bloods are then tested for lactate levels. This should give a better estimate of HRAT and allow one's coach to provide specific direction (for hard training sessions). Another method is to run (once well warmed up) on a treadmill with a set gradient (say 3%) and increase speed every 30 seconds (from 12kph, say). Record the HR at the end of each 30sec element and plot that graph. There will be a 'deflection' on the graph at AT and the HR this occurs at can be used as HRAT. I have done this Conconi Test several times and the results, for me, were very close (ie same HRAT estimate) as the lab lactate test. Having now clicked @jefmcg 's link above I see this is well described there, with graphs.

How does everyone measure busting a gut outside the lab?

"One will only discover it by pushing really hard (running will get one higher than riding) well warmed up. Outdoors the best way is to find a long hill that gets steeper at the end, run at increasing pace up it, sprinting in the final phase. The heart rate will be too high to measure by finger on wrist/temple so an HRM is needed. One's body/mind is self limiting. If one's not fit enough to push extremely hard and/or haven't the will/motive/mental strength to do so, then the HR will be lower (than actual max)." For me I can't get to what I know (by the running test above) is HRmax when cycling, even up the hardest climbs (say Hardknott Pass) - for me about 10 beats lower.
HTH

 

[screenman]

You mention the deflection point, Peter Read graphed that out in a test I did 27 years ago it seemed like mumbo jumbo back then, nice to have it confirmed as his coaching improved me a lot.

 

[bigjim]

I recently had to attend hospital for a heart stress test. They put you on a treadmill and raise the speed and elevation. The thing is they do not let your heartrate go the max. They start to pull you back from aroung 144bpm even though you are quite comfortable. Why is that? Is taking you to the max so dangerous? Surely to stress the heart you would take it to the max?

 

[Slick]

I recently had to attend hospital for a heart stress test. They put you on a treadmill and raise the speed and elevation. The thing is they do not let your heartrate go the max. They start to pull you back from aroung 144bpm even though you are quite comfortable. Why is that? Is taking you to the max so dangerous? Surely to stress the heart you would take it to the max?

I had the same test and was stopped when I was quite comfortable. If you had a problem it would have surfaced almost immediately.

 

[PK99]

I had the same test and was stopped when I was quite comfortable. If you had a problem it would have surfaced almost immediately.

I had one some years ago, they were tracking blood pressure alongside heart rate and stopped the test when blood pressure started to rise, nothing to do with max heart rate.

 

[jefmcg]

I recently had to attend hospital for a heart stress test. They put you on a treadmill and raise the speed and elevation. The thing is they do not let your heartrate go the max. They start to pull you back from aroung 144bpm even though you are quite comfortable. Why is that? Is taking you to the max so dangerous? Surely to stress the heart you would take it to the max?

You were presumably taking the stress test for a reason. I'm sure maxing out is more dangerous for people with heart disease, and that group would be more common amongst people taking a heart test.

Also unless there was a diagnostic reason to bring your heart to MHR, why would they?

Disclaimer: not a doctor, blah blah blah

 

[Slick]

I had one some years ago, they were tracking blood pressure alongside heart rate and stopped the test when blood pressure started to rise, nothing to do with max heart rate.

Never thought of that. The only reason I posted my experience was the text lasted for some time as I realised I wasn't in such bad shape. My brother, who did think he was fit, was stopped almost immediately and had 5 stents fitted.

 

[bigjim]

You were presumably taking the stress test for a reason. I'm sure maxing out is more dangerous for people with heart disease, and that group would be more common amongst people taking a heart test.

Also unless there was a diagnostic reason to bring your heart to MHR, why would they?

Disclaimer: not a doctor, blah blah blah

I was having chest pains when hill climbing on the bike. Heart under stress so I assumed they would get as close to that scenario as possible. Evidently achieved " impressive 94% of 100% of maximum" on some scale or other. Consultant more or less told me to go away. Found ectopic heart beat which they did not see as a problem.

 

[gavgav]

I was diagnosed with a heart condition called Mahaim Fiber Tachycardia, 6 years ago, which interestingly the consultant believes I was born with, but following 12 months of training for and then completing the Great North Run, that the heart changed shape enough for it to start becoming symptomatic. Uncontrollable sudden bouts of 300bpm and irregular rhythm’s. Ablation has (touch wood) cured me and I’m still symptom free now and enjoying cycling.

 

[gavgav]

Ah - my mother was diagnosed with the same thing about six months ago.

All the best to her Reg. Hope they can treat accordingly.

 

[gavgav]

She’s was originally told that she would need an ablation but she’d have to be referred to Southampton. Then she was told they’d stopped doing it there and she’d need to be referred to Oxford. Then she was told her CCG wouldn’t Fund it, as she was too old.

I’m preparing to give her CCG an arse-kicking...

Don’t blame you one bit. Hope things improve.

 

[medlifecrisis]

Here's a different question for our welcome expert. In a trained elite athlete would you expect to see the same rhythm from an ECG as for an untrained athlete?

Good question. Highly trained athletes can develop unusual rhythms - but they're generally not of concern. Normal heart rhythm is called 'sinus rhythm' which is the normal anatomical way a heartbeat is created and travels through the heart. Athletes can get not only sinus bradycardia (slow heart) but 'heart block' which is an abnormality in the electrical pathway. The most trivial just means the electrical pulse moves slower through one of the junction boxes. If it moves even slower you can get dropped beats. Some also develop something called a bundle branch block which is another non-worrying electrical issue.

On scans the heart can be enlarged, thickened and it can be very hard to differentiate between a diseased heart and a fit one on scans and heart tracings. Sometimes even if you exercise someone hard it's not always apparent - someone could be very fit *and* have early stages of a disease. So it's a very interesting field.

The second part of the answer to your question is that later in life, endurance athletes have higher rates of something called atrial fibrillation - an irregular heart. This is important as it can predispose to a stroke. We're not entirely sure why this happens.