Derestrict GF600

[bonzobanana]

From your link, requires DVSA approval for the throttle. Done on an individual basis.

Yeah the pedibal one does same as the Wisper bikes if you want a full function throttle on it, it has to go through the test process which is extra money but once done it can be used like any other ebike, on the road, on shared paths etc. No tax, insurance or MOT required just like a normal ebike. I do find it interesting though that there is no issue with a 750W hub motor being called a 250W motor and even when placed right under their noses its not a problem. At least when it is a mid-drive motor that pretends its a 250W motor because the controller and motor are combined in one unit its less obvious there is an issue unless you monitor how much power it is actually using.

 

[classic33]

Yeah the pedibal one does same as the Wisper bikes if you want a full function throttle on it, it has to go through the test process which is extra money but once done it can be used like any other ebike, on the road, on shared paths etc. No tax, insurance or MOT required just like a normal ebike. I do find it interesting though that there is no issue with a 750W hub motor being called a 250W motor and even when placed right under their noses its not a problem. At least when it is a mid-drive motor that pretends its a 250W motor because the controller and motor are combined in one unit its less obvious there is an issue unless you monitor how much power it is actually using.

It goes through the MVSA, and if it passes is reclassified as a moped.

You keep on linking to a piece from 2019 that has been proved wrong by the MVSA outcome reclassifying them as mopeds, requiring insurance, number plate, and from next year liable for VED.
Rider requires the relevant driving license, helmet(Of approved design) and appropriate insurance.

 

[Drago]

It goes through the MVSA, and if it passes is reclassified as a moped.

You keep on linking to a piece from 2019 that has been proved wrong by the MVSA outcome reclassifying them as mopeds, requiring insurance, number plate, and from next year liable for VED.
Rider requires the relevant driving license, helmet(Of approved design) and appropriate insurance.

Indeed. Commonly known as speed pedalecs once registered etc, but legally just mopeds.

 

[classic33]

Indeed. Commonly known as speed pedalecs once registered etc, but legally just mopeds.

Come the new VED requirements for electric vehicles, I can see more people taking an interest in just how much effort, if any, the rider is putting in.

 

[bonzobanana]

It goes through the MVSA, and if it passes is reclassified as a moped.

You keep on linking to a piece from 2019 that has been proved wrong by the MVSA outcome reclassifying them as mopeds, requiring insurance, number plate, and from next year liable for VED.
Rider requires the relevant driving license, helmet(Of approved design) and appropriate insurance.

You seem to be confusing the L1e-A category with the 250W LPM sub-category again. L1e-A category allows for up 1000W I think but 250W LPM is just 250W (although we know it isn't) There is no need for any insurance, number plate etc with 250W LPM sub-catagory as its officially 250W in the same way that normal ebikes are 250W. So along with Wisper we now have this new company Pedibal individually testing ebikes with the DVSA. You can see the video below and there are no number plates or anything like that. It's just used in the same way as normal ebikes but they do have to be individually tested. I guess my point about Pedibal compared to Wisper is the Wisper models that went through the DVSA testing sort of looked close to 250W from what I remember but Pedibal has gone through the process with a 750W hub motor (classed as 250W in the same way as mid-drive motors) and got away with it. They did all their tests and accepted this oversized hub motor as 250W despite being 3x that power. Yes its still weaker than many Bosch, Shimano, Brose, Yamaha etc mid-drive motors that are classed as 250W but it has moved the goal posts a bit allowing more fairness between hub motors and mid-drive motors in the legislation as previous to this mid-drive motors were allowed more freedom to be higher power than hub motors and still road legal.

https://pedibal.com/

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAwJUePQJQ4

 

[classic33]

You seem to be confusing the L1e-A category with the 250W LPM sub-category again. L1e-A category allows for up 1000W I think but 250W LPM is just 250W (although we know it isn't) There is no need for any insurance, number plate etc with 250W LPM sub-catagory as its officially 250W in the same way that normal ebikes are 250W. So along with Wisper we now have this new company Pedibal individually testing ebikes with the DVSA. You can see the video below and there are no number plates or anything like that. It's just used in the same way as normal ebikes but they do have to be individually tested. I guess my point about Pedibal compared to Wisper is the Wisper models that went through the DVSA testing sort of looked close to 250W from what I remember but Pedibal has gone through the process with a 750W hub motor (classed as 250W in the same way as mid-drive motors) and got away with it. They did all their tests and accepted this oversized hub motor as 250W despite being 3x that power. Yes its still weaker than many Bosch, Shimano, Brose, Yamaha etc mid-drive motors that are classed as 250W but it has moved the goal posts a bit allowing more fairness between hub motors and mid-drive motors in the legislation as previous to this mid-drive motors were allowed more freedom to be higher power than hub motors and still road legal.

https://pedibal.com/

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAwJUePQJQ4

DVSA: Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency
MSVA: Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval scheme/test.

Do the bikes conform to the EU’s EN15194 regulations?
The basic stipulations of these are:

The bike must be pedal assist, not throttle-based
The bike must have a continually rated power output of 250W or less
The speed limit for assistance must be 25km/h

If they don't, and you put it through the MSVA in the UK it gets classified as a moped.
"Anything faster or more powerful than the EN15194 regulations allow technically needs to be type approved as a motor vehicle. There are two standards: L1e-A, for motors up to 1Kw and speeds up to 25km/h, and L1e-B, for motors up to 4Kw and speeds up to 45km/h."

If it doesn't meet the EN15194 regulations, "There's a lot of paper to wade through

First, find yourself a bike. You’ll need to make sure it comes with a Certificate of Conformity, and that it conforms to 168/2013/EU regulations; you’ll need the certificate later.
Head off to the DVLA and get yourself some forms. You’ll need a V267 (New vehicle import pack) and a V55/4 (Application for a licence for a new motor vehicle and declaration for registration). They take about a week to arrive.
Complete the V267 & V55/4 with the information from the Certificate of Conformity.
Send everything with a cheque for £55 and the original Certificate of Conformity off to the DVLA. You’ll need to include a bank statement and/or utility bill, and a copy of your driving license or passport.
Wait for your V5C registration document to come back: this takes about two weeks
Check your vehicle tax - it’s exempt, so there’s nothing to pay
Get a standard vehicle number plate (around £10 online) and fix it to the rear of your bike
Arrange some insurance - Bikesure quoted £135 third party only & Quoterack quoted £200 fully comprehensive for this bike
Find yourself a kite-marked motorcycle helmet. An open-face moped helmet will cost from about £30 upwards.
And you’re done! So you’re looking at a process that’s likely to take about a month, and cost you at least £200, on top of what you’ve spent on your bike."

The above, in italics, is Riese und Muller bikes UK response to the regulations as they apply in the UK*. S-pedelecs/speed pedelecs aren't recognised in the UK.

As for your suggesting "you need to put a 250W rating sticker on it", its illegal. In the EU and UK. The placement of that sticker is covered by/in the regulations.
And yet you're telling someone to do it.



*https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/advice/buying-and-riding-an-s-pedelec-in-the-uk-1637

 

[bonzobanana]

DVSA: Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency
MSVA: Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval scheme/test.

Do the bikes conform to the EU’s EN15194 regulations?
The basic stipulations of these are:

The bike must be pedal assist, not throttle-based
The bike must have a continually rated power output of 250W or less
The speed limit for assistance must be 25km/h

If they don't, and you put it through the MSVA in the UK it gets classified as a moped.
"Anything faster or more powerful than the EN15194 regulations allow technically needs to be type approved as a motor vehicle. There are two standards: L1e-A, for motors up to 1Kw and speeds up to 25km/h, and L1e-B, for motors up to 4Kw and speeds up to 45km/h."

If it doesn't meet the EN15194 regulations, "There's a lot of paper to wade through

First, find yourself a bike. You’ll need to make sure it comes with a Certificate of Conformity, and that it conforms to 168/2013/EU regulations; you’ll need the certificate later.
Head off to the DVLA and get yourself some forms. You’ll need a V267 (New vehicle import pack) and a V55/4 (Application for a licence for a new motor vehicle and declaration for registration). They take about a week to arrive.
Complete the V267 & V55/4 with the information from the Certificate of Conformity.
Send everything with a cheque for £55 and the original Certificate of Conformity off to the DVLA. You’ll need to include a bank statement and/or utility bill, and a copy of your driving license or passport.
Wait for your V5C registration document to come back: this takes about two weeks
Check your vehicle tax - it’s exempt, so there’s nothing to pay
Get a standard vehicle number plate (around £10 online) and fix it to the rear of your bike
Arrange some insurance - Bikesure quoted £135 third party only & Quoterack quoted £200 fully comprehensive for this bike
Find yourself a kite-marked motorcycle helmet. An open-face moped helmet will cost from about £30 upwards.
And you’re done! So you’re looking at a process that’s likely to take about a month, and cost you at least £200, on top of what you’ve spent on your bike."

The above, in italics, is Riese und Muller bikes UK response to the regulations as they apply in the UK*. S-pedelecs/speed pedelecs aren't recognised in the UK.

As for your suggesting "you need to put a 250W rating sticker on it", its illegal. In the EU and UK. The placement of that sticker is covered by/in the regulations.
And yet you're telling someone to do it.



*https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/advice/buying-and-riding-an-s-pedelec-in-the-uk-1637

Again you are quoting unrelated text not applicable to the 250W LPM sub category. You can clearly see in the video that ebike is fully registered and legal and not having number plates, insurance, tax etc. Just seems madness to keep quoting this nonsense, it will only confuse people and is incorrect information.

The issue with the 250W sticker is earlier Tongsheng motors were not certified as 250W and then later were and many people were using stickers on their earlier 500W or 750W motors to give them 250W status as long as the motors were restricted to 15.5mph. The EU certification is so weirdly written that it is simple a test of the motor that it will work at 250W rather than that being the continuous rating of the motor. Any logical certification and test procedure would have rated the controller board that governs the power that goes into the motor but that isn't how the EU certification was written. As many of these higher power ebikes use the same Bafang hub motors then if one ebike has been certified with 250W with that Bafang motor and another isn't but its the identical same hub motor then people have been using 250W rated stickers because its a known 250W rated hub motor on their ebikes as long as restricted to 15.5mph. It's a common Bafang hub motor on fat ebikes. Basically you are just using the certification of one product as a type approval for other ebikes with the same motor. The issue is that the EU certification isn't interested in the controller board so much so you may have different ebikes with different controller boards with varying levels of power but the EU certification is mainly interested in the motors themselves and that is where the 250W rating sticker is put not the controller board. It's just a weird situation because of the abysmal and poorly written EU certification that makes absolutely no sense and creates all these issues with enforcing the legislation. The 250W rating sticker you would need would have the model number of your hub motor on it.

Rating hub motors like that is utterly moronic. A direct drive hub motor for example can take from 200W to about 3000W (the very same hub motor) and it is just utter madness to put a 250W rating sticker on such a hub motor. Yes it works at 250W but its far more important and logical to rate the controller board which actually dictates power into the motor.

Hopefully if the UK ebike legislation is updated we will see ebikes rated by the controller power just like most other ebike certification in the world.

 

[bonzobanana]

A video here on a Cyrusher event with most riders on fat ebikes in the UK. The Cyrushers typically are 250W certified but they include the throttle loose in the packaging for those willing to fit them which would not be legal if fitted unless only operational when peddling or speed restricted to 6km/h. While these ebikes are powerful they aren't quite as powerful as the most powerful 250W rated e-mountain bikes with mid-drive motors so I don't get why they offend so many cyclists, its just another tool to get people cycling especially the elderly and those with health issues. Fat tyre bicycles are very comfortable but without a motor really difficult to ride up hills but with a motor they are transformed into a very usable option for commuting and leisure riding. The oversized tyres allow for riding on loose surfaces like snow and sand.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT8qWbUJUT0

 

[Drago]

I'm not sure the ability to cycle on snow or sand is likely to appeal to the elderly or those with health issues.

 

[Dogtrousers]

I'm not sure the ability to cycle on snow or sand is likely to appeal to the elderly or those with health issues.

Ageist!

I'm no spring chicken and I had go on a fat bike on snow and it was great fun. I don't have much in the way of health issues though.

 

[bonzobanana]

I'm not sure the ability to cycle on snow or sand is likely to appeal to the elderly or those with health issues.

It might do for those groups but I was really thinking of that feature as a benefit for a wider audience. The Calibre Dune was a brilliant fat bike from Go Outdoors in the past with a great spec vs price ratio but you had to be very fit to get it up hills at a reasonable speed.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk8qdaTxz0A

 

[Drago]

So unless it's snowing on the beach a normal bike is better then? Glad we cleared that up.

 

[Time Waster]

A question from someone who m had a couple of hours ride on a rental e-mtb once and who basically knows little about them other than seem loads in my local bike shop and online too.

There's so many e-bikes in bike shops that completely comply with regulations from respected manufacturers with resources to understand the regulations sold by bike shops that similarly have the resources and knowledge to only stock legal e-bikes.

So with this in mind, why would you want to risk buying one with questionable or borderline legality? Why take the risk? Why not play safe and may buy from a reputable bike company from a reputable bike retailer? Why all this debate when it's probably not necessary because you can find a bike that's not borderline or is legally unquestionable?

 

[Jenkins]

<Snip>
So with this in mind, why would you want to risk buying one with questionable or borderline legality? Why take the risk? Why not play safe and may buy from a reputable bike company from a reputable bike retailer? Why all this debate when it's probably not necessary because you can find a bike that's not borderline or is legally unquestionable?

Given how many of these are used by food delivery riders on minimum wage or piece work, they'll be looking for the cheapest option first. Then, as they need to get the deliveries done as quickly as possible and will be doing it for an extended time, they won't want something that needs pedalling all the time and won't be restricted to the 15.5mph maximum speed for assistance. As to safety - why worry as these battery fires always happen to someone else and these must be safe as you can buy them on the internet! Everyone else doing the deliveries has one and they've not been stopped by the police, so why shouldn't I have one as they must be legal surely..

 

[bonzobanana]

So unless it's snowing on the beach a normal bike is better then? Glad we cleared that up.

The snow and the beach are two separate surfaces its good on but not sure how it would cope with snow on sand that might be a task too far for a fat bike. Fat bikes are extremely comfortable as the tyres act as suspension and extra grip. The suspension effect is without complicated front and rear suspension that requires servicing and maintenance. I'm not sure what a normal bike is as there are so many different types but I guess a fat bike would be an alternative to a mountain bike or comfort bike. We won't be seeing them in the Tour de France anytime soon.