Disc brakes on road bikes

[oldandslow]

Notwithstanding all the stated advantages, I'm interested that, if anything, crashes in the pro peleton now seem to be more frequent and worse. It's hard to lay that at the door of disc brakes, but it doesn't look like better modulation etc. in practice. And if there is theoretically better modulation, but in practice people brake later because of it and therefore crash more, well it's the reality rather than the theory that matters, surely?

As I said, hardly proof that brakes are the cause, but equally hardly convincing evidence of improvement.

 

[Vapin' Joe]

Notwithstanding all the stated advantages, I'm interested that, if anything, crashes in the pro peleton now seem to be more frequent and worse. It's hard to lay that at the door of disc brakes, but it doesn't look like better modulation etc. in practice. And if there is theoretically better modulation, but in practice people brake later because of it and therefore crash more, well it's the reality rather than the theory that matters, surely?

As I said, hardly proof that brakes are the cause, but equally hardly convincing evidence of improvement.

The current UCI points system, introduced in 2016 is the main driver of the increase in crashes. Points go much further down the placings than they used to, which means team members who would in previous days have sat up and coasted home in stage races or abandoned one dayers once they had done their job now have to fight for a decent placing.

It has made the latter stages of races much more frantic and dangerous than they used to be. Crashes are not caused by better brakes and tyres.

 

[Milzy]

My post was in response to Milzy's patently false assertion that rim have better modulation and their frankly risible one that they cause crashes.

Anyway it's far from just me. It's most people who have (a) actually tried them and (b) aren't luddites. They're objectively better in most respects.

Discs have:
Better braking dry and especially wet.
Better modulation
Lower maintenance
No rim wear
Self adjusting (hydraulic ones anyway)

Which is worth it off road. On road just not required. Us guys who ride modern classics because they’re better than the rip off rubbish of today never have any problems on rim brakes.

 

[cyberknight]

The current UCI points system, introduced in 2016 is the main driver of the increase in crashes. Points go much further down the placings than they used to, which means team members who would in previous days have sat up and coasted home in stage races or abandoned one dayers once they had done their job now have to fight for a decent placing.

It has made the latter stages of races much more frantic and dangerous than they used to be. Crashes are not caused by better brakes and tyres.

And comments from the older riders was that the young guns have no respect for the established high ranking riders and are going for gaps that are not there.

 

[Punkawallah]

Which is worth it off road. On road just not required. Us guys who ride modern classics because they’re better than the rip off rubbish of today never have any problems on rim brakes.

Did a ride yesterday on a 40 year old race bike (10Kg) with side pull brakes and 40mm blocks. Took longer to stop than on my usual touring bike (15Kg) with centre pull and 70mm MTB blocks, but stop it did.

 

[Milzy]

Did a ride yesterday on a 40 year old race bike (10Kg) with side pull brakes and 40mm blocks. Took longer to stop than on my usual touring bike (15Kg) with centre pull and 70mm MTB blocks, but stop it did.

Exactly it’s all about knowing your machine and timing your braking. Old cars are the same. Yet I see modem disc brake bikes still brake too late and lock up/crash. Super/Hyper cars have huge ceramic/carbon drilled grooved discs with monster calipers but the user either brakes too late or locks up and crashes.
I’m the only guy on the chainy with rim brakes on Campag blocks but no drama when they slam on their advanced technology.

 

[Punkawallah]

Exactly it’s all about knowing your machine and timing your braking. Old cars are the same. Yet I see modem disc brake bikes still brake too late and lock up/crash. Super/Hyper cars have huge ceramic/carbon drilled grooved discs with monster calipers but the user either brakes too late or locks up and crashes.
I’m the only guy on the chainy with rim brakes on Campag blocks but no drama when they slam on their advanced technology.

I swapped out my blocks after coming down an overly steep hill with a loaded bike :-)

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Notwithstanding all the stated advantages, I'm interested that, if anything, crashes in the pro peleton now seem to be more frequent and worse. It's hard to lay that at the door of disc brakes, but it doesn't look like better modulation etc. in practice. And if there is theoretically better modulation, but in practice people brake later because of it and therefore crash more, well it's the reality rather than the theory that matters, surely?

As I said, hardly proof that brakes are the cause, but equally hardly convincing evidence of improvement.

If you are an inch off the rider in front wheels at 30 mph, you won’t even have time to think about braking, let alone modulate it. Pro peloton crashes tell us nothing on the subject, particularly for the use cases of us forum users.

 

[oldandslow]

If you are an inch off the rider in front wheels at 30 mph, you won’t even have time to think about braking, let alone modulate it. Pro peloton crashes tell us nothing on the subject, particularly for the use cases of us forum users.

It may not. I was kind of thinking aloud.

However, one of the points often made about safety measures and accidents is that telling people that they have safer equipment may induce more risk taking. Reality only hits when you actually need to brake, and find that you still don't have time, even with the new ones. The best safety measures ought to be the ones that are more effective than people assume.

As I said, thinking aloud. Pros ought to be the most experienced riders with the best judgment.

 

[Punkawallah]

It may not. I was kind of thinking aloud.

However, one of the points often made about safety measures and accidents is that telling people that they have safer equipment may induce more risk taking. Reality only hits when you actually need to brake, and find that you still don't have time, even with the new ones. The best safety measures ought to be the ones that are more effective than people assume.

As I said, thinking aloud. Pros ought to be the most experienced riders with the best judgment.

Whose experience and judgment is perhaps tainted with the internal (and external) motivation to ‘get there first’.
It would be interesting to see figure for ‘crashes per mile’ for competition and everyday use.

Addendum. Apparently cyclists might have a greater risk per million miles travelled because their slower speed means time on the road is greater. Perhaps we should measure ‘hours travelled’ rather than ‘miles travelled’. Also over half the cyclist deaths on the road do not involve another vehicle. Half of fatal/serious collisions due to ‘aggressive/dangerous/reckless behaviour’ involved another bicycle. Four fifths of these did not involve any other vehicle.
Cycling accidents are declining overall, but competition injuries seem to be increasing with the increasing average speed in races.

https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...s-in-great-britain-pedal-cycle-factsheet-2024


View: https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/1c1415a/world_tour_injuries_per_race_kilometre_by_average/#

 

[EckyH]

https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...s-in-great-britain-pedal-cycle-factsheet-2024

Very interesting, thank you.
One thing in particular catches my eye: The time-wise correlation between "Pedal cycle traffic" (section 2) and "Casualty rates per mile travelled" (section 4). My conclusion is that the higher the use of bicycles in percentage of traffic, the lower is the probability to get injured at a given distance. But that must take in account that this fact sheet does not include data about other kinds of alternative traffic like walking or public transportation. One question is: What other type of traffic did the higher cycling traffic in 2020 replace?

Cycling accidents are declining overall, but competition injuries seem to be increasing with the increasing average speed in races.

In my opinion this could be one reason, but definitely it is not the only one. For sure is that the severity of injuries correlates with the speed of crashes. For that reason alone it would be good to take measures to reduce the speed of races.

E.

 

[sevenfourate]

On-topic I guess (?). I used these on Motorcycles for years. But anyone using Floating rotors on any (Road ?) Bicycle successfully ? Anything to be aware of…….

 

[Exlaser2]

I’m the only guy on the chainy with rim brakes on Campag blocks but no drama when they slam on their advanced technology.

Totally agree . Am a big fan of campag especially their brakes . My best bike is fitted with a full Athena group set + campag wheels ( so not even top end campag ) and I have never once thought’ I need more stopping power ‘. And that includes coming down Mont ventoux . My wife’s best bike is a lot newer than mine and is fitted full ultegra disc brakes and I cannot see any noticeable difference in proformance in real world conditions.
Look I am not a Luddite,I do understand the performance advantages discs have for a lot of forms of cycling, both in the sporting and leisure fields. But for high end road cycling, the real world advantages are not worth the added weight in my view, as there is no getting round ultimately stopping power is limited by the contact patch with the road.
Now I’ve got that off my chest, I will go back to that other dead technology. I will be listening to some CDs 😂😀 ( better quality recordings than 95% of downloaded music you know 😂😂)

 

[oldandslow]

The thing that really makes me curious is that I started on Weinmann side-pulls and the like. Then I got some decent racing brakes of the era, and nearly went over the bars when I first used them. Then I got some Mark II Dura Ace brakes, and really nearly went over the bars. Then I got some dual-pivots, and... Then, on one bike, I set up dual pivots with high mechanical advantage (owing to a quirk of frame layout, I was able to invert some drop shoes), and...

I'm not sure how we ever stopped on those Weinmanns. Yet it was to those that I was referring when I talked to my driving instructor about the way that cyclists learn to brake to the point of locking up the wheel, and letting off slightly, in order to stop as fast as possible*.

How can we need brakes four generations better than something that could already lock up the wheel?

All the same, I'm not anti-disc. Rather, it's just that I have no interest in buying bikes fast enough to keep up with technology that has, from my perspective, only just become standard. I only got my first carbon frame 18 months ago, and that was second-hand and an opportunity I couldn't refuse. So if someone wants to sell me a lightly-used carbon road bike with Campag Record, discs and electronic shifting for, say, £100, I'm in.

* I was asking, before my first practice emergency stop (and before ABS), whether you could do the same in a car. He said yes, with years of practice. Then we did the stop, and I did what came naturally. Then he called me a show-off

 

[SpokeyDokey]

Totally agree . Am a big fan of campag especially their brakes . My best bike is fitted with a full Athena group set + campag wheels ( so not even top end campag ) and I have never once thought’ I need more stopping power ‘. And that includes coming down Mont ventoux . My wife’s best bike is a lot newer than mine and is fitted full ultegra disc brakes and I cannot see any noticeable difference in proformance in real world conditions.
Look I am not a Luddite,I do understand the performance advantages discs have for a lot of forms of cycling, both in the sporting and leisure fields. But for high end road cycling, the real world advantages are not worth the added weight in my view, as there is no getting round ultimately stopping power is limited by the contact patch with the road.
Now I’ve got that off my chest, I will go back to that other dead technology. I will be listening to some CDs 😂😀 ( better quality recordings than 95% of downloaded music you know 😂😂)

The thing that really makes me curious is that I started on Weinmann side-pulls and the like. Then I got some decent racing brakes of the era, and nearly went over the bars when I first used them. Then I got some Mark II Dura Ace brakes, and really nearly went over the bars. Then I got some dual-pivots, and... Then, on one bike, I set up dual pivots with high mechanical advantage (owing to a quirk of frame layout, I was able to invert some drop shoes), and...

I'm not sure how we ever stopped on those Weinmanns. Yet it was to those that I was referring when I talked to my driving instructor about the way that cyclists learn to brake to the point of locking up the wheel, and letting off slightly, in order to stop as fast as possible*.

How can we need brakes four generations better than something that could already lock up the wheel?

All the same, I'm not anti-disc. Rather, it's just that I have no interest in buying bikes fast enough to keep up with technology that has, from my perspective, only just become standard. I only got my first carbon frame 18 months ago, and that was second-hand and an opportunity I couldn't refuse. So if someone wants to sell me a lightly-used carbon road bike with Campag Record, discs and electronic shifting for, say, £100, I'm in.

* I was asking, before my first practice emergency stop (and before ABS), whether you could do the same in a car. He said yes, with years of practice. Then we did the stop, and I did what came naturally. Then he called me a show-off

The advantage of discs has nothing to do with locking up the contact patch but more to do with the fact that rim brakes are poor in wet conditions whereas disc brakes simply work.

As a real world example there is a very long (c1 mile) descent on the Appleby Road (Lake District) not far south of Tebay that in wet, heavy rain conditions on rim brakes (TRP CX 8.4 Mini V's with Ashima 72mm Tri Blocks) that at best provide heart-in-mouth moments and at worst simply give up the ghost and stop working at all. Whereas my Shimano 105 discs just work under exactly the same conditions.

In the dry, not much in it. But in the wet it is a night vs day difference.