Do drivers make better cyclists?

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theclaud

Openly Marxist
Location
Swansea
You're quite right. It is all terribly unscientific. I started the thread simply to air a thought I'd had. I was pleasantly surprised by all the opinions offered, although once I'd posted I had no right to moan even if I didn't like them.

I've raised this question also with a few friends who are keen cyclists. They all drive, so the response will be weighted. The unanimous belief was that experience in any other form of transport is of benefit in a transport system where use is shared between many vehicle types, with no exceptions. All those I asked put the experience of bicycles as an aid to good driving above experience of cars being an aid to good cycling. That opinion was well expressed on this thread too and on reflection I agree.

All those I chatted with were of the belief that drivers who failed to take bicycles into account were probably not cyclists and cyclists who behaved as if the highways were build only for them were probably not drivers. These remarks were made with a hint of a smile. Levels of wryness in the smiles varied.

All were also pedestrians and none felt there had been any collusion in any form of perceived marginalisation. That all were pedestrians will have weighted the responses.

Frankly, none understood the point, but I don't want to give the impression they're as thick as I am.:sad:

Heavens preserve us from "common sense". OK, we'll start at the beginning. The hypothesis as stated in your OP is as Norm says. However, your choice of title suggests that somewhere along the line you have indeed made the same leap with which he upbraids Tillyflop and Mr Vegetables. Beyond that all we really have in support of your hypothesis is a bit of indulgence from people of a generous disposition, and complacency (see wry smiles above) on the part of a few drivers about the value of their "experience". Forgive me if I'm underwhelmed by this, but I'd love a pound for every mediocre driver who overvalues her own capabilities and has an unduly high estimation of her own roadcraft. The feminine is generic, in case you think I've missed the obvious. I can but wonder, if driving "experience" is so valuable, why people with so much of it frequently seem to have learned very little about driving itself, let alone about cycling. I put a couple of things to you as nothing more than food for thought: that the bicycle and the motor-car are so fundamentally different in conception and purpose as to render all platitudes and equivalences about "sharing" virtually meaningless; and that the nature of the motor-car tends to produce pretty much the opposite effect to the utopian mutuality you imagine.

The worst thing about cars is that they are like castles or villas by the sea: luxury goods invented for the exclusive pleasure of a very rich minority, and which in conception and nature were never intended for the people. Unlike the vacuum cleaner, the radio, or the bicycle, which retain their use value when everyone has one, the car, like a villa by the sea, is only desirable and useful insofar as the masses don't have one. That is how in both conception and original purpose the car is a luxury good. And the essence of luxury is that it cannot be democratised. If everyone can have luxury, no one gets any advantages from it. On the contrary, everyone diddles, cheats, and frustrates everyone else, and is diddled, cheated, and frustrated in return.
 

lb81

Senior Member
As a driver and a cyclist IMO the only aspect of cycling that could 'improve' my driving would be the awareness of what it is like to be a cyclist when I'm driving which then influences the respect I give to cyclists when in my car.

When on the road no matter if i'm on 2 wheels or 4 i treat everyone the same - like they haven't seen me, or are going to pull out on me etc until I know for certain they have or they aren't. Its also taught me that road position of both cyclists and car drivers (in fact any other road user) can tell you much about someones intentions, but ultimately tells you nothing about what the person riding or behind the wheel is actually going to do...

Interesting thread though, including some of the replies ^_^
 
OP
OP
B

Bicycle

Guest
A better cyclist in what sense?
In a sense that they stay out of the way or that they are safer because they know stuff that non-drivers don't know.

Good question. I wasn't explicit and no-one else has asked.

The sense in which I intended the question to be understood was "a cyclist as a road user on a network shared with many other modes of transport".

Almost every reply seems to be made on this basis, but it is a perfectly fair question as I wasn't clear in my OP.

I might conceivably have meant to ask whether motoring would make me better able to climb, descend, deal with a tank slapper or put my bidon back in its cage while descending.... but that would be silly. I don't use a bidon in my car. :laugh:
 
OP
OP
B

Bicycle

Guest
Heavens preserve us from "common sense". OK, we'll start at the beginning. The hypothesis as stated in your OP is as Norm says. However, your choice of title suggests that somewhere along the line you have indeed made the same leap with which he upbraids Tillyflop and Mr Vegetables. Beyond that all we really have in support of your hypothesis is a bit of indulgence from people of a generous disposition, and complacency (see wry smiles above) on the part of a few drivers about the value of their "experience". Forgive me if I'm underwhelmed by this, but I'd love a pound for every mediocre driver who overvalues her own capabilities and has an unduly high estimation of her own roadcraft. The feminine is generic, in case you think I've missed the obvious. I can but wonder, if driving "experience" is so valuable, why people with so much of it frequently seem to have learned very little about driving itself, let alone about cycling. I put a couple of things to you as nothing more than food for thought: that the bicycle and the motor-car are so fundamentally different in conception and purpose as to render all platitudes and equivalences about "sharing" virtually meaningless; and that the nature of the motor-car tends to produce pretty much the opposite effect to the utopian mutuality you imagine.

The worst thing about cars is that they are like castles or villas by the sea: luxury goods invented for the exclusive pleasure of a very rich minority, and which in conception and nature were never intended for the people. Unlike the vacuum cleaner, the radio, or the bicycle, which retain their use value when everyone has one, the car, like a villa by the sea, is only desirable and useful insofar as the masses don't have one. That is how in both conception and original purpose the car is a luxury good. And the essence of luxury is that it cannot be democratised. If everyone can have luxury, no one gets any advantages from it. On the contrary, everyone diddles, cheats, and frustrates everyone else, and is diddled, cheated, and frustrated in return.

I had to look the quote up to see that it was Gorz (or maybe written under his French name). I quite like Sartre and his pals, but they were a little too full-on for me. I think this piece is from the early 70s and was (to my mind) out of date even then. But that's just my opinion.

Your observation about mediocre drivers who overestimate their ability strikes a chord with me. I feel as you do. The word 'mediocre' is an interesting one. Both I and most people I know would describe me as mediocre both in a car and on a bicycle.

You are right in supposing that I believe that riding a motorcycle and driving a car, tractor and lorry have somehow improved my cycling. I say this (accepting that I may well be wrong) having extensive experience of driving or riding all of the above in close proximity to all of the others. That last point is one where I might differ from some contributors, who admitted that their view was based on no experience at all behind the wheel of anything.

I do like your point about cars and bicycles being fundamentally different in purpose. In some ways they are. Nonetheless, there are similarities. The majority of contributors to this thread seem to agree with me on this, although I do accept (stated earlier) that cycling knowledge may improve driving ability more than the other way around.

Finally, I do not imagine a Utopian mutuality as you suggest I do. My hypothesis was more modest than that: Being an experienced driver makes me a better cyclist than I would otherwise be.

I love a little Gorz as much as the next person, but this may not be the thread for that sort of stuff. He's not my favourite essayist or thinker, but he was AWESOME in The day the Earth Stood Still. :tongue:
 
no IMO
Cyclist makes a better driver
Motorcycling makes a better Cyclist and Driver
I think that with cycling and motorcycling you never put your guard down and cant become complacent - (or you'll face certain death sooner or later) and your riding skills keeps improving and you learn new things every day
with car driving on the other side, as years go by your skills at first improve and then you get to a point where what you think is your driving skill becomes confidence and that becomes complacency, in the safety of the car shell. After a while car drivers start loosing their skills.
I do suffer from road rage for many driver being so lazy, obnoxious, space, speed, distance unaware, un-courteous, arrogant and plain dangerous.... breath mimi breath! Rant over lol


PS I think I missed my vocation, I should have been a Traffic Cop!
 

Jezston

Über Member
Location
London
While I'm sure having experience of different vehicle types can make you more understanding of them when in another, and so being an experienced driver can make you a better cyclist - I'd be keen to reaffirm that it is not the case that it does make you a better cyclist.

Most of the people who cycle to work where I am also drive, and some of their riding is bloody awful. Red light jumping, gutter hugging, pavement riding and never looking around being the order of the day with many of them. I still recall the haranguing I got from a couple of them for daring to ride on the road. Roads are for cars! Stay on the pavement like us!
 

yello

Guest
so being an experienced driver can make you a better cyclist - I'd be keen to reaffirm that it is not the case that it does make you a better cyclist.

And I agree. I kind of had that down as taken as given but, admittedly, I didn't make clear that assumption when I replied earlier. So, to be clear, simply being a pedestrian/car driver/motorcyclist/HGV driver does not necessarily mean you will be a better cyclist. Nor vice-versa.

Btw, for me, 'better' equates to being more aware and respectful of others. It doesn't relate to handling skills etc in this context.
 

Norm

Guest
Hmmm... ok I take the point that some will be unobservant or selfish individuals, no matter what.

I feel, however, that many people are not like that and will have the cognitive dexterity to transfer enlightenments from their different experiences.
 

cd365

Guru
Location
Coventry, uk
Being a car driver and a motorcyclist, in my opinion, has made me a better cyclist. I am more aware of what road position a car driver will likely take when they see me and I try to cycle assertively/passively to ensure that my safety is in my own hands. There are some numpties out there behind a wheel though.
 
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