Don't want the expense of a bike fit.

[Drago]

Another one was elbow on front of saddle and you should be able to touch the back of the stem with your knuckles when you make a fist.

About as useful as sacrificing a virgin or praying to the rising sun!

 

[Webbo2]

About as useful as sacrificing a virgin or praying to the rising sun!

I suspect if I go and try it now on my bikes it won’t be far off.

 

[Drago]

I have arms ljke an orangutans and a relatively short torso for my height.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

I have arms ljke an orangutans and a relatively short torso for my height.

Is this you?

 

[Drago]

Uncanny! But why am I riding your bike?

 

[AndyRM]

Uncanny! But why am I riding your bike?

Nah, Ming's has handlebar tassels.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Uncanny! But why am I riding your bike?

Wait, what 🫪

 

[katiewlx]

I know one guy who rides a size too small, the consequence is a dreadful riding style. He bounces to the extent the seat post flexes with each pedal stroke and he broke a post earlier this year. So while it's true people do buy the wrong size bike, a problem solved by having a fit before purchase, there are several other considerations before concluding after "moving the saddle around" that a bike is the wrong size.

Bar width, stem length, shifter position, bar height, cleat position, foot position, saddle height, saddle position and sitting position all have an influence.

its not about riding a size too small thats the wrong message to take away from what I was saying, its riding the correct size frame that fits you to start with.

the road bike I have currently is definitely a frame size too large for me, even though I pass that rule of thumb test about the front hub view with the handlebars ,because my hands naturally only come to rest only on the crossbar part of the handlebars in a resting seated position, not the hoods or the drops, I have to reach or lean forward to do that,or rotate my pelvis forward which introduces certain saddle front area interactions which lets not get into.

so I can fumble around with all the various things that can influence comfort in that position, and Ive developed a setup that works for the majority of rides I do, though I noticed with age flexibility does decline which can make it harder on longer rides, but fundamentally the frame is a size too large and Id guarantee thats what a bike fit would comeback with for me.

my next road bike will be the frame size down, at which point Id have to rework all my "comfort" settings on the bike, probably ideal time for a bike fit then, to find the same equilibrium of setup to comfort, but being on the right sized frame should push me 80-90% of the way there.

 

[Illaveago]

I was thinking that a handy tool for selecting the right length of stem would be like the type of stem used on old tandems for the rear rider. The stem was long and the the bars could be slid forwards or backwards to the correct position.

 

[PaulSB]

its not about riding a size too small thats the wrong message to take away from what I was saying, its riding the correct size frame that fits you to start with.

the road bike I have currently is definitely a frame size too large for me, even though I pass that rule of thumb test about the front hub view with the handlebars ,because my hands naturally only come to rest only on the crossbar part of the handlebars in a resting seated position, not the hoods or the drops, I have to reach or lean forward to do that,or rotate my pelvis forward which introduces certain saddle front area interactions which lets not get into.

so I can fumble around with all the various things that can influence comfort in that position, and Ive developed a setup that works for the majority of rides I do, though I noticed with age flexibility does decline which can make it harder on longer rides, but fundamentally the frame is a size too large and Id guarantee thats what a bike fit would comeback with for me.

my next road bike will be the frame size down, at which point Id have to rework all my "comfort" settings on the bike, probably ideal time for a bike fit then, to find the same equilibrium of setup to comfort, but being on the right sized frame should push me 80-90% of the way there.

I didn't suggest it's about having too small a frame size. My point is to show the impact the wrong size frame can and does have.

Your message was clear - "moving your saddle around and it doesnt fix it, then maybe you do need a bit of proper analysis and a second opinion to sort it out, and almost certainly the problem will be actually youre on the wrong size frame and your body just cant adapt to fit it comfortably." This is the wrong conclusion after doing nothing more than "moving the saddle around." I pointed you to other considerations that influence bike fit, which you seem to ignore.

Your post above demonstrates precisely why a professional bike fit before purchase is so important. The rule of thumb for the front hub is new to me, I've never heard it until this thread. It may have been true decades ago when bikes were all similar, today the huge variation in frames probably renders this and other established rules of thumb outdated. Your comments about reach should have warned you the bike was too big the first time you rode it. Buying from a physical store with, ideally, a bike fit would have prevented this.

I've used the same LBS for 25+ years for everything. They have set up my bikes using rules of thumb, tape measures etc. Always OK and comfortable. The owner knows me well. In March this year I had a bike fit. In May I ordered a new road bike, and gave my LBS the measurements for set up, the owner asked me if I was sure? He stated "it's not what I would give you." We went ahead with the fit measurements. The outcome was a significantly improved position which lead me to have a fit for my other bikes, making some very real changes. These changes significantly improved my position and comfort on all three bikes.

I'm not criticising my LBS, far from it, their knowledge has hugely improved my cycling enjoyment over three decades. However on bike fitting it's clear to me decades of "rule of thumb" and tape measures no longer compare with the outcome of a professional fit. The improvements are significant, increasingly so as one ages.

Professional help of this type isn't limited to cycling. I could point to other examples that give similar improvements when professional advice is taken. Self-medication is rarely the answer.

 

[bulldoze]

It’s only a guide like the heel on the pedal, they are supposed to be starting points. Another one was elbow on front of saddle and you should be able to touch the back of the stem with your knuckles when you make a fist.

I did a search for this and it said elbow on front of saddle and fingers extended?

I just touch the stem if it is tip of fingers but If it is knuckles then I am nowhere near

 

[Drago]

Your post above demonstrates precisely why a professional bike fit before purchase is so important.

But which bike fit? Which system? They all disagree and even contradict one a other at the fine detail level, and they can't all be right.

And which system prioritises comfort, which performance, and which efficiency? Some of the systems are quite vague re their actual mission statement.

Youre recommending the OP take a medicine but not actually prescribing one.

 

[wafter]

I did a search for this and it said elbow on front of saddle and fingers extended?

I just touch the stem if it is tip of fingers but If it is knuckles then I am nowhere near

Tbh I'd consider this one of the least valuable mantras on basic fit since saddle nose to arse-bone area can likely vary significantly, as can stem geometry.

On top of that your forearm length is only one anthropomorphic factor that affects reach so I'd not afford this method much credence.

 

[ktmbiker58]

At 68 I am more prone to aches and pains than I used to be. I did get a bike fit a few years ago but found it wasn't a great help being aimed more towards performance and obviously modelled around younger riders. What the fitter should've advised was ditching the racing bike and getting a Pashley Roadster or a Dutch bike.

Here is my gentlemens road bike that I can ride all day:

 

[PaulSB]

But which bike fit? Which system? They all disagree and even contradict one a other at the fine detail level, and they can't all be right.

And which system prioritises comfort, which performance, and which efficiency? Some of the systems are quite vague re their actual mission statement.

Youre recommending the OP take a medicine but not actually prescribing one.

I can't quickly find a link but the one I've been fitted with is the Shimano Bike Fit system. The blurb states this covers all disciplines. Having sat on one I can believe this. I'm sure other systems focus in on the minutiae of, say, TTing but we are, i think, discussing recreational cycling, in a wide sense. My experience is a good, qualified fitter using the Shimano system has given me very good results. Friends using the same guy have a similar experience.

Essentially though two things are the deciding factors, the approach and attitude of the fitter and the willingness/ability of the rider to clearly describe his/her objectives.

Previously I've been fitted by a physio who was also a tri-athlete. He simply looked at my position, no questions regarding my objectives etc. I now understand this is far from adequate.

I have learned over the years from PT, physio and bike fit is professionals with a holistic approach will give one a far better result. When choosing to work with a professional in this very broad area we're looking for people who understand the importance of addressing more than just the physical.

Let's be realistic elbow to finger tips, saddle to bars, is frankly a ridiculous generalisation.