Employers rights to a copy of your passport or birth certificate.

[mjr]

The two documents are required in combination. Im sure that someone could try to spoof the system using that combination, but it's rather unlikely. Or we could introduce Identity Cards, but no-one seems very keen on that.

It's not unlikely that people will pick the two photoless docs. And no, identity cards wouldn't necessarily prove work status either. And do we really have so many workers we now want to turn productive ones away? I guess that we must have stopped immigration now then.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

It's not unlikely that people will pick the two photoless docs. And no, identity cards wouldn't necessarily prove work status either. And do we really have so many workers we now want to turn productive ones away? I guess that we must have stopped immigration now then.

This is one of those "I've been doing this for 30 years moments". Please trust me, it is. Final answer.

 

[mjr]

This is one of those "I've been doing this for 30 years moments". Please trust me, it is. Final answer.

OK, you win: I've only been doing data security just over 20

 

[Levo-Lon]

i had to when i got my new job..no problem other than i had no up to date passport and couldn't find my birth certificate..

applied for a new cert and then found it lol

 

[Tin Pot]

This is one of those "I've been doing this for 30 years moments". Please trust me, it is. Final answer.

It is what? Unlikely that people will pick the two photoless docs?

I’ve read the thread a few times and I’m not sure what is in dispute, but it’s interesting.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

It is what? Unlikely that people will pick the two photoless docs?

I’ve read the thread a few times and I’m not sure what is in dispute, but it’s interesting.

To explain.

Someone doesn't have the right to work in the UK - they are from outside the EU.

Is it likely that they would produce a forged (or indeed stolen genuine) Full Birth Certificate with at least one parent's name, plus an official document containing an NI number (which if genuine would be someone else's - the same person as the Birth Cert, if the fraud was not to be exposed, and if made up would be detected at first payroll run) as their proof of right to work in the UK? It's simply not a very smart way to do it.

Those seeking to pass themselves off as having right to work don't, at least in my not-so-limited experience (I think I was accountable for about 8,000 of said cheacks last year, give or take) use these documents. Typically one sees false passports, passport stamps giving right to remain, visas et al, some quite professional - or more likely people simply work in the black economy for "employers" who turn a blind eye, or who don't have effective checks in place.

 

[BoldonLad]

To explain.

Someone doesn't have the right to work in the UK - they are from outside the EU.

Is it likely that they would produce a forged (or indeed stolen genuine) Full Birth Certificate with at least one parent's name, plus an official document containing an NI number (which if genuine would be someone else's - the same person as the Birth Cert, if the fraud was not to be exposed, and if made up would be detected at first payroll run) as their proof of right to work in the UK? It's simply not a very smart way to do it.

Those seeking to pass themselves off as having right to work don't, at least in my not-so-limited experience (I think I was accountable for about 8,000 of said cheacks last year, give or take) use these documents. Typically one sees false passports, passport stamps giving right to remain, visas et al, some quite professional - or more likely people simply work in the black economy for "employers" who turn a blind eye, or who don't have effective checks in place.

Genuine question, not doubting your experience.

Does this mean that NHI No are “under control” now? I ask, because there was a period (maybe 20 years ago), when there were far more NHI No’s in circulation than there were people. If this has been rectified, and, control maintained, that would be “a good thing”, IMHO.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Genuine question, not doubting your experience.

Does this mean that NHI No are “under control” now? I ask, because there was a period (maybe 20 years ago), when there were far more NHI No’s in circulation than there were people. If this has been rectified, and, control maintained, that would be “a good thing”, IMHO.

I don't know tbh - I know what the employer needs to see, certify and retain to establish a Statutory Defence even if the document turns out to be a forgery/ringer/from Dodgy Dave down the Arches (providing it has been taken in good faith, and isn't obviously produced on a John Bull Printing Press!) and the employee in question is sprited away by the UKBA in the early hours.

In essence a reasonably dilgent employer has nothing to fear here.

 

[mjr]

Those seeking to pass themselves off as having right to work don't, at least in my not-so-limited experience (I think I was accountable for about 8,000 of said cheacks last year, give or take) use these documents. Typically one sees false passports, passport stamps giving right to remain, visas et al, some quite professional - or more likely people simply work in the black economy for "employers" who turn a blind eye, or who don't have effective checks in place.

So you've never spotted an identity thief using someone else's genuine documents and so you think it's not happening? Or is it that the employer has a defence and that's what you care about? No-one much cares about the worker's identity security AFAICT.

 

[Freds Dad]

When I worked in HR all candidates had to bring documents with them to first prove that they were the person who had applied for the vacancy and that they had the right to work in the UK.
Documents included an EU or UK passport or driving licence for photo ID and proof of address, so something like a utility bill or bank statement no older than 3 months or a council tax bill.

I attended a course run by the NW Anti- Terrorist team who showed us how to spot forged documents and how to check genuine documents to ensure we were complying.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

So you've never spotted an identity thief using someone else's genuine documents and so you think it's not happening? Or is it that the employer has a defence and that's what you care about? No-one much cares about the worker's identity security AFAICT.

I was answering a specific question by another poster. Why don't you share your expertise?

 

[Brains]

I think what may have prompted all this is the sudden spike in recent cases whereby people bought into the country as babies, woked here for the last 50+ years and then get into a lot of bother when they try to cliam their (justified) pension, and are told to "go home"

One of the (many) cases going on at the moment is this one
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-43646553
Where a man born and bread in Wales, never been abroad (and therfore never had a passport) has been in prison for the last four months as the UK tries to deport him "back" to the USA

Quite rightly, the Yanks have said they dont want him as there is no proof he is one of their own.

(Mind you is he does get sent "back" he will have to form a queue, as a lot of other people would like right of residence in the USA)

 

[BoldonLad]

I think what may have prompted all this is the sudden spike in recent cases whereby people bought into the country as babies, woked here for the last 50+ years and then get into a lot of bother when they try to cliam their (justified) pension, and are told to "go home"

One of the (many) cases going on at the moment is this one
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-43646553
Where a man born and bread in Wales, never been abroad (and therfore never had a passport) has been in prison for the last four months as the UK tries to deport him "back" to the USA

Quite rightly, the Yanks have said they dont want him as there is no proof he is one of their own.

(Mind you is he does get sent "back" he will have to form a queue, as a lot of other people would like right of residence in the USA)

I am no expert and not disagreeing that it seems "unfair", but, presumably, the people in question have some "nationality" and hence, right to a Passport of that Nationality?

For example, one of my grandchildren is the child of a UK National (my son), and (at the time of his birth) a Mexican, but, he (my grandson) was born in USA. It is my understanding (perhaps incorrectly) that my grandson has entitlement to UK, and USA, and possibly Mexican Passport(s). His mother has since become a UK citizen. AFAIK, my grandson, so far, has only a UK Passport, and Citizenship.

 

[Brains]

I've been reviewing staff members' right to work documents for the best part of the last 20 years. It's all part of the outsourcing of immigration controls to the private sector, which accelerated when a certain Theresa May was the Home Secretary. You should all be grateful you didn't immigrate as a child -she'll chuck you out to where you were born or deny you emergency healthcare even though you've been working and paying taxes all your life.

It's not just employers. Landlords have to establish right to residence.

This is a new law, we have just turned down a prospective tennant on the grounds that she was unable to provide a passport and prove she had right of residence in the UK.
She was 'very' British through and through.

Actually the real reason, other than the swastica tatoos, was the dreadful credit history, and that the local council wanted her out of their own property.
I would not have touched her with a barge pole, but I just liked using the rules against those that made them.

It will be interesting to see if local councils get procecuted for suppling properties to those that should not have them, as in this area they are by far the biggest culprits.

 

[Brains]

Any evidence to support that claim, by any chance?

Most reputable private landlords want regular payers and an easy life.
They dont want trouble, they dont want their very valuable property damaged.
Therefore most of them will bend over backwards to vet any potential tenant with as fine a tooth comb as possible.

The Housing Associations, whilst not as finiky as the private landlords have exactly the same issues and problems

Therefore this leaves those potential tenants who are a 'problem' with the local councils, who in many case really do not seem to care about the people or the quality of the housing.
Anything (just) is better than a cardboard box on the street.
As they do not keep an eye on their own housing stock you end up with sub letting as a fairly common problem (almost unheard of in the private sector where regular property inspections take place, and fairly rare in the housing associations, although some associations are better than others)

Of course there are exceptions in all sectors, the far west of London 'beds in sheds' issue is one example and the Bristol HMO's is another, but if you want to see rife sub letting in appaling conditions then look at some of your local council owned properties.

If you are in the coutry illegially, therefore working in the black economy, you can't rent a house via the private sector or housing associations, so you turn to the council or council sub lets, it's the only place to go.

Having said which, this is a country in the top 10 most rich nations on earth. Everyone in this country should have safe, warm and dry bedroom, a decent bathroom and somewhere to cook and live.

I could cure the current situation in about 15 years without building on the greenbelts, but it would take the loans of money and commitment of the 1950's when we were building 250,000 houses a year. The base problem is Maggie got the idea of selling the council house right, however the fundamental problem is that for every house sold they should have been building between 1.5 and 2 new homes for each one sold. We now have 25 years of catching up to do.
Bottom line is over a 30-40 year period it would not cost the country a single penny.