First 4 hours with my new Garmin GPSmap 60Csx GPS unit and City europe mapping

[yello]

Oh Dave.... really good of you to offer help. Others, myself included, recommended that btfb exclude the Edge from his shortlist. It has functionality that he doesn't need and, hence, didn't need to afford.

Are you able to help with the route v track issue that btfb is having?

 

[Bigtallfatbloke]

I'm struggling to understand why you didn't go for the more obvious Garmin Edge cycle specific range?

The 605 and the 705 units are cycle specific in so much as they have stuf fon them like cadence, heart rate monmiters etc...well I dont need those on a tour. I also looked at the etrex vista units but Garmin said the GPSmap was better at recieving a signal in built up areas like towns....also my unit has buttons on th efront which are better for use while riding.

..any way, I have what I have...I cannot change it, and i certainly cannot change it before my tour in time.
To be honset I am sure it is a good unit, if somewhat 'complicated' to drive. I am getting through the learning curve bit by bit which is why I am asking so many questions...Yello, hi. Yes it's dam frustrating and I will do as you say. I just wan tto get to grips with this thing as much as I can (especially the uploading of routes) before I go.

...the ironic thing her eis that I bought this to save weight and hassle of paper maps...now I have weight and hassle of paper maps AND GPS and all the bits like the Manual to carry!

...I am still convinced that Garmin should make it totally clear that this unit cannot do all they claim unless you have FULL unlimited access to a PC with internet connection every 50-100km or so...which is totally impractical.
Had I known that I would not hav ebought it..or indeed any GPS.

...anyway Time to stop moaning Big blke and move on...so does anybody have any suggestions for the issues/questions I raised above?

 

[dodgy]

Ah I see, well nothing wrong with choosing one model over another, was just interested in the thought process.

First of all, let's think about the Garmin terminology concerning routes, waypoints, tracks and courses. You'd think we'd only need one term for describing a cycle ride, but not so

Route:

This is what you use to follow a series of waypoints. This can be fairly limiting due to the number of waypoints you may use to describe your route.

Waypoints:

On most Garmin devices, only 100 waypoint memory, check your manual. A Waypoint is a point in space, a spot on a map. It doesn't carry much more information such as distance, speed, heart rate. It's just a location marker, some of the newer devices can autoroute based on waypoints.


Courses:

A Garmin course is a ride that you have completed and recorded on your device. You can convert tracks and .gpx files to courses using 3rd party software, but Garmin expects a course to be a ride that you have already recorded and can follow the course at a later date (because you have already ridden it). Courses can be 13000 trackpoints (13000 gives you the required granularity to accurately describe a fairly long ride).

GPX:

The accepted standard for sharing gpx positional data. I believe Garmin follow the accepted standard.

Once you've got your head around that stuff up there ^^^, then you can start to think about how you want to use your device.

FWIW, I plan all my routes on my PC using Mapsource with an appropriate map, I use and recommend City Navigator 2008 Europe (DVD version) as it has autorouting and an excellent amount of detail for the whole of Europe. If you buy the SD card version of this map, you can't plan rides on your PC.
When I used a Garmin Edge 305 (no possibility of displaying maps on this device), I used to create my maps on bikeroutetoaster (Google is your friend) or download rides from motionbased. With various jiggery pokery you can make just about any format work as a navigational riding aid.

So what are the specific questions that remain unanswered? I know there'll be a few

PS - For a really good overview of route planning, take a look at Frank Kinlan's blog (an acquaintance of mine) at http://frank.kinlan.co.uk , in particular the route planning tutorial.

Dave.

 

[Bigtallfatbloke]

Thankyou..I will take some time to 'digest' all of that. Cheers.

I am using bikeroute toaster to draw my routes out. It follows the smaller roads nicely. I am then saving the gPX file to my c drive. I then open up Mapsource and browse to the gpx file and open it. I see the dotted route line ona REALLY basic high level map. I am right clicking on the first waypoint and drawing the 'pink' line a sclose to the route as I can putting in a point at each major turn in direction (not every junction though). I am then sending this file to my Garmin.

I have succeeded in doing this with a small local 40km loop I ride each day. However I have plotted a longe rroute in bikeroute toaster (Friedrichtshafen to Basel) which si some 180km ish. I followed th esame proceddure and th eGPS started to import the route...it takes a few minutes and then displays an error message saying there is not enough memory in the gPS for this longer route.

So...how do I get around this? I know I ned to reduce th eroute distance and probably the waypoints in the route but I need to do it so I dont lose accuracy.
Also this route is just one tiny part of a BIG tour. I had hoped to be able to store many routes (of say 100km rides) in the GPS and ride one a day.
I would still like to do this.

If you buy the SD card version of this map, you can't plan rides on your PC.

I was ready to buy the DVD. I spoke to Garmin support and th edealer. Both of whom effectively told me I would be wasting my money with the DVd and should buy the SD card instead. They said that using bikeroutetoaster or mapmyride etc, mapsource and the GPS unit would give me th esame results much cheaper, which is why I did not buy the DVD version. Having spent the cash on the SD card I can now not afford the DVD version...due to their bad advice.

I am finding mapsource very difficult and use runfriendly compared to say google maps for example or bikeroute toaster. I also struggle with the terminology used in the pdf manual, which should be in plain speaking english imho.

So...whilst there are many other questions I have, the main thing I need to do (and do QUICK as I leave in 5 days time) is to plot a series of 100km routes in bike route toaster in such a way as to be able to take them into the GPS via mapsource so i can 'ride the list' as it were. Would i be right in saying that I need to limit my waypoints mapsource to a maximum of 50 per route? I think that is the limit on this thing?

I have to say that if it wasnt for the kind peeps on this site Garmin would have recieved th eunit back with a strongly worded letter by now. I feel badly advised by them, al I wanted to do wa sbuy a good reliable easy to use GPS for a cycle tour. i was reay to pay for the DVD and told them so. I was clearly sold the wrong mapping product I feel.

Thanks for helping.

 

[dodgy]

Hi BTFB, I understand what you're trying to do.

What you need to do is to remove some of the granular detail on your routes to overcome the limitations of your particular GPS. If you think about it, it really isn't necessary to have a very detailed 'bread crumb' trail to follow when riding a bike on the road. You only need to know when to turn. Have you tried planning a very basic ride in bikeroutetoaster or Mapsource and simply placing markers (rt tn or lt tn) at the appropriate junctions?

Dave.

 

[Bigtallfatbloke]

It's good of you to help. specially on a Sunday...many thanks

here is a pic of what I just did in mapsource..it's my short local loop which I plotted in bikeroutetoaster.



First I added some waypoint markerflags on what i thought would be general direction changes. Then I joined the marker flags with the route tool (pink line) and took the file into my gPS. Does this picture seem to you as if I am adding th ewaypoints at sensible distances/places? could they be further apart and not affect accuracy?

What you need to do is to remove some of the granular detail on your routes to overcome the limitations of your particular GPS. If you think about it, it really isn't necessary to have a very detailed 'bread crumb' trail to follow when riding a bike on the road. You only need to know when to turn. Have you tried planning a very basic ride in bikeroutetoaster or Mapsource and simply placing markers (rt tn or lt tn) at the appropriate junctions?

OkI will try to do this.
One reason I didt do it was because my plan is to ride along the rivers for the most part as close as i can (more scenic and flatter)

So apporoximatly how far apart is th erealistic maximum I should place a waypoint flag/marker....say i put one in th emiddle of London and the next in say Southend essex for argument s sake ...would thta be unworkable ?? I suspect they need to be MUCH closer right?...say...every junction?

...edit: I just found this on a google search:
http://motorcycleinfo.me.uk/mapsource/mapsource_for_dummies_part_one.htm
which looks useful.

 

[dodgy]

Hi BFTB,

I would add waypoints only at road junctions and name them appropriately, for example 'lt tn' for a left turn. I think bikeroutetoaster includes functionality to label a junction with a turn flag?

Dave.

 

[Bigtallfatbloke]

ok thanks.

The route above that I loaded nto the GPS sent me on some really odd and wrong directions...like sending me down a road then telling me to do a u turn and head right back up the same road in th eopposite direction etc...not what i progrmmed at all.

The thing is that when I am in Mapource I cannot see the road turnings, just the dotted line from bikerotetoaster...so i am guessing where th ejunctions are at that point. But I know htis route REALLY well and I know those waypoints are correctly placed...the GPS STILL takes that info and sends me off on a route that is not the same as what I have told it to do...so again...lots of U turns and then off on a route it cleary feels is better , but isnt.

The entire process is totally unworkable I feel without the DVD mapping....which I why I am pretty *******off with Garmin support and their dealer.

Why would the GPS change a route that I have sent to it when it calculates prior to navigation?

 

[piedwagtail91]

personally i think you're going about it the wrong way by using routes.
they are far more restrictive than tracks/tracklogs.
your gps is superior to mine so should be able to do at least as much as mine.
i have all my century rides and a few more saved as tracklogs in my gps, about 20 in total which must cover the best part of 2000 miles..
I've never used a route as i find tracklogs(the breadcrumb trail ) better.
you could try planning your route on brt, save as gpx, import to the waypoint software and then without doing anything else send it to your gps.
I've been using the track method for years by following both the breadcrumb trail it displays and the arrow,. any waypoints are sent to the gps separately and when following a track are unnecessary, apart from poi, as the tracklog/breadcrumb trail shows every turn.see if you can do the above, then in your gps go to your saved tracks/tracklogs page and select your ride from there and get it on screen( you should be able to select a colour for your track, select a bright one) and follow it, either but simply watching the display as you're moving or by letting the gps navigate and tell you when to turn.
mine will do this so yours should, I've only ever used tracklogs for plotting rides , but will try sending a gpx to my unit to make sure it works.

EDIT, I've just imported a gpx file to my gamin pc software and sent it to my gps as a track, it's shown on the gps so i would guess it will be the same on yours.
if i wanted to follow it i'd just select it and simply follow it as it's a local ride and i know the turns.
if it was in an unfamiliar area i let the gps navigate it and tell me when to turn.you shouldn't need to make any alterations or add any turn waypoints if you use a track.
waypoints take up a lot more room than the trackpoints in a track as they contain a lot more info. that could be why you got the memory error message.

for a tour i'd plot the days ride on brt and get it to the gps as a saved track,doing the same for each day saving them as day 1, 2 etc. i don't know how many yours will store but it should be around 20.
you can have tracks with up to 500 points which is plenty to cover the 100 mile rides i've saved.

 

[MockCyclist]

Thanks for helping out here MockCyclist. I was working blind, not knowing the particular GPS that btfb was using. Sounds like he's got it sussed now, or is certainly well on the way to it!

Thanks also due to NickM for posting the link to aukweb which had some really useful stuff for gps geeks:
http://www.aukweb.net/mag/index.htm

BTFB:

Battery life: I found a paid of AA batteries would last me a day and a half - probably 12 hours.

Route v. tracks. Ideally you need to be uploading routes to your gps. BikeRouteToaster produces tracks. It's possible to convert them to routes using gpsbabel. You can navigate using a track but you lose some of the functionality of the unit.

You can store 50 routes, but I *think* the 1000 waypoint limit is for all 50.

That's wrong and if I'd thought about it properly I would have realised I have already had much more than that in my unit already. In fact I've successfully done a test upload of 50 routes with 241 points each and still had waypoint memory left. Really, you aren't likely to have any problem with capacity but using tracks isn't the way to go.

When navigating using your own routes, you don't really want to be using Auto Routing so you won't be limited to 50 points per route.

Auto Routing (on the gps, not on BikeRouteToaster) is best reserved for use with the "find" feature when you just want to get to your destination without having any input on the road you take.

Pretty much all the frustration you're having since my last post is down to trying to use a track. I'll try and put down a workflow for using bikeroutetoaster if I can (I don't use that site) but if you want to get a bit further in the short term I would suggest you create a route using MapSource, upload that and experiment with it.

To get you going, this is what to do:

On your gps, delete all your routes and tracks. Press the Find button, select Waypoints, and if you've got any, press Menu and delete the lot. Start clean.

In MapSource, go to Edit > Preferences > Routing tab. Select "Use Direct Routes".

Click the Route tool and draw yourself a route, by clicking on junctions or turns, these should be joined up with STRAIGHT lines. Start the route from where you have gps lock, in other words, from your home I presume.
In MapSource, of the four tabs Maps, Waypoints, Routes, Tracks, you should end up with a line on the Routes tab only.
Upload the Route to your gps and it should appear under the Routes icon.

Now, if you press Find, Waypoints, you MAY find that you have some waypoints even though you didn't have any before and you didn't select to transfer any. That's ok.

You must be able to get to this stage before you can proceed. When you do, select the Route and pick Navigate. Select Off road (that's important).

You should then end up with a map of your home area with a pink line starting your route. It will start as a straight line and may not follow your chosen road precisely.

 

[MockCyclist]

here is a pic of what I just did in mapsource..it's my short local loop which I plotted in bikeroutetoaster.



First I added some waypoint markerflags on what i thought would be general direction changes. Then I joined the marker flags with the route tool (pink line) and took the file into my gPS. Does this picture seem to you as if I am adding th ewaypoints at sensible distances/places? could they be further apart and not affect accuracy?

This is looking good. I can see the wiggly line track and it's listed on the Tracks tab. But don't upload this to the gps.

Putting your own waypoints in and joining them up is a good way to do this. You can re-name the waypoints to something useful. However - if you create a user waypoint at each turn or junction you will probably run out of capacity.

You don't need to specify any waypoints at all to follow a route and if you're short of time I would suggest you don't bother with them. Just use the Route tool to join up the turns and junctions with straight lines.

If the green track shown was a bridleway on the map, I would probably put two or three more points in to describe the route slightly better.

I would put two more to the top right to define two changes of direction, and another in the shaded area bottom left to pull the line toward the path a bit better.

Otherwise, it's ok, but don't upload the track.

 

[Bigtallfatbloke]

Hi, and thanks again for sticking with me...

Select Off road (that's important).

I have the follow road option selected in the GPS...so i switch that off right?

The route verses track thing is somewhat confusing to me at the moment. Imay try out both ideas as I do need to get over 2000 miles of routes(or tracks?) into this thing PDQ.If you take a look at the pictures I have posted above you can see the purple straight line between waypoints. That is the line I drew in mapsource using the routing tool...so I assume from that , that I am importing ''routes' currently. Indeed I see routes to select under the routing icon in the gps and have managed to get it to navigate a route I put into it from BRT and Mapsource...however it does change the route a bit (like it has a mind of its own) and tells me to do a lot of unecessary U turns ( I have the avoid U turns option ticked)

...I learned how to upload custom POIs tonight using POI loader and some free POIs that Brock kindly pointed me in the direction of...which is good....I now have a few campsites to head to..indeed i have managed to select a french farm and get it to navigate me there from Essex...which is a result, although again it is a GPS calculated route and not one I put in myself...which is what i need to be able to do comfortably and so that I can trust my routes/tracks.

Otherwise, it's ok, but don't upload the track.

How do I NOT do that then...I will look for an option in mapsource meantime.

This is a great help all, many thanks indeed.

 

[Bigtallfatbloke]

Any better?






I cant see any routing option...maybe it's called somethings else?

 

[MockCyclist]

ok thanks.

The route above that I loaded nto the GPS sent me on some really odd and wrong directions...like sending me down a road then telling me to do a u turn and head right back up the same road in th eopposite direction etc...not what i progrmmed at all.

The thing is that when I am in Mapource I cannot see the road turnings, just the dotted line from bikerotetoaster...so i am guessing where th ejunctions are at that point. But I know htis route REALLY well and I know those waypoints are correctly placed...the GPS STILL takes that info and sends me off on a route that is not the same as what I have told it to do...so again...lots of U turns and then off on a route it cleary feels is better , but isnt.

The entire process is totally unworkable I feel without the DVD mapping....which I why I am pretty *******off with Garmin support and their dealer.

Why would the GPS change a route that I have sent to it when it calculates prior to navigation?

This could be down to Routing settings and the use of Auto-Routing when you don't want it.

On your gps, go to Settings > Routing.

Guidance method, pick Prompted (but we're working on Off-Road for now)
Follow Road method, pick Prompted
Next Turn Pop-up, On.

Follow Road Options:
Off Route Re-calculation, pick Prompted


The Auto-Routing thing drove me nuts at first and almost caused me to chuck the gps in the nearest ditch ... there's perhaps a tendency to think that Auto-Routing is what you want, after all you've bought a gadget and auto must be better ... but in fact, when you've plotted your own route you want it to follow that, not its idea of a better way home.

Auto-routing is for when you don't know the way, and you want it to work it out. I think I already said something like that.




Ah, we're cross-posting again ... I'll try and keep up

If you have Follow Road option turned on, the unit will try and get you on a road or track that your mapping is aware of, so that option is useless if you want to follow a bridle path that it is not aware of.

However, you may want to Follow Road when you are using Auto-Routing, that's why you want the option to be Prompted.

A really silly outcome of picking the wrong options: Ask it to Auto-Route to some destination, but pick Off-Road. You'll get a straight line between where you're standing and where you want to go. Fine if your bike has wings.


To avoid uploading the track, you just untick the Track box on the Transfer dialogue in MapSource.

 

[Bigtallfatbloke]

To avoid uploading the track, you just untick the Track box on the Transfer dialogue in MapSource.

Ah!...so simple and staring me right in the face

Ok I have Guidance method =off road
Follow road method=promted
Next turn pop up = on

follow road options
Off route calculation= promted
claculation method =quicket calculation
Calculate routes for = bicycle
avoid = (I ticked all5 boxes here)

all the routes and tracks are deleted now.