Fit for Purpose - Sales of goods act

[gaz]

I don't really know where to post this, but as a lot of people read here and it's related to commuting, at least for me.

Is it possible to claim that a bicycle is not fit for purpose under the sales of goods act?

My problem is the brakes, a pretty big problem, they need constant adjustment to function at a level which would be deemed safe, without adjustment then i would not be able to stop my bike in an emergency.
I've taken it to several chains of the shop i bought it form. Several changes have been made but only one improved on the issue but not enough to make me feel safe using it.

For those interested, this is about the Genesis day01, the brakes are tektro lyra but the rotors are shimano.

 

[Tynan]

yes

but I suspect you'll need to take it quite a long way before they presumably agree to settle out of court

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

I should imagine that you could gain redress under the sale of goods acts. Goods must be "fit for purpose" and "of merchantable quality". I would imagine both of these might apply here. I seem to recall someone (you?) mentioning that the cause is a mismatch between the pads and the rotor so that the pads imterfere with the scalloped edge of the rotor. Not sure, but if that is the case, then they are clearly not of merchantable quality.

 

[the snail]

I think trading standards dept of your local council might be a good place for advice?

 

[MacB]

I would have thought you could get a refund if they can't sort it.

I know it's not always the answer but have you looked at the info around about setup of mechanical disc brakes and the possible pitfalls? I only have experience of the Avid BB7 but 3 of the setup factors should be universal:-

excluding any losses from the cable run due to cable outer compression - basically when you touch the brake lever the caliper should respond immediately, no slack to pick up, and it should carry on through the lever actuation - if yours isn't doing this then it's not setup right or hasn't used a good enough cable outer.

position of rotor within caliper - is it at the optimum point for brake performance? - for the BB7s in the center isn't optimum and position alters the feel of the braking

trueness of rotors - if they aren't true enough then the pads have to be backed off too far to avoid rubbing

I had read about caliper/rotor compatibility issues when I was looking into disc brakes but it all seems to relate to a few years ago, couldn't find problems around this on more recent kit.

The other possibility is if rotor or pad has become contaminated, in which case the shop should be able to swap them out. Re the proper prep I used this page for the BB7, some of the general info should apply to any mechanical disc brake, expecially around the cabling:-

http://www.twowheelblogs.com/avid-bb7-disc-brake-set-and-tuning

My LBS mechanic thought it was overkill but admitted to being impressed with the end result and thought the method was pretty simple.

 

[400bhp]

It is possible to claim a bicycle is not fit for purpose.

I've copied the relevant part of the Sales of Goods Act below:

)For the purposes of this Act, goods are of satisfactory quality if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking account of any description of the goods, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances.

(2B)For the purposes of this Act, the quality of goods includes their state and condition and the following (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods—

(a)fitness for all the purposes for which goods of the kind in question are commonly supplied,

(b)appearance and finish,

(c)freedom from minor defects,

(d)safety, and

(e)durability.

(2C)The term implied by subsection (2) above does not extend to any matter making the quality of goods unsatisfactory—

(a)which is specifically drawn to the buyer’s attention before the contract is made,

(b)where the buyer examines the goods before the contract is made, which that examination ought to reveal, or

(c)in the case of a contract for sale by sample, which would have been apparent on a reasonable examination of the sample.]

So, safety is in there.

Insofar as getting your claim held up, well that's where things become tricky.

I'm not a lawyer but from looking at this a while ago and from what I read, IIRC it is up to you to prove it isn't fit for purpose. Generally this would mean getting an "expert" to state the item is unsafe. Plus you will have had to try and give the supplier (not the manufacturer by the way, as your contract is with the supplier) the option to redress the issue.

Secondly, does the particular part (the brake caliper and/or cables/levers) make the sum of the parts unsafe?

Have you tried to speak to the supplier about the issue yet?

 

[400bhp]

I think trading standards dept of your local council might be a good place for advice?

From quite a bit of experience with Trading Standards, I have generally found them to be next to useless.

For a start they are very difficult to get hold of.

 

[gaz]

I seem to recall someone (you?) mentioning that the cause is a mismatch between the pads and the rotor so that the pads imterfere with the scalloped edge of the rotor. Not sure, but if that is the case, then they are clearly not of merchantable quality.

That was me, i noticed an improvement where some spacers where put in and the pads where getting better contact with the rotor. But it's still got issues.

I would have thought you could get a refund if they can't sort it.
.....

I followed what you posted and some of the info you linked to when you where setting up yours. Unfortunately none of it is applicable to my case, i have tested the cable outers, I'm constantly adjusting the pads (that is main issue) and the rotor is in perfect shape.
I've used mechanical disc brakes before and hardly had to adjust them!

....
I'm not a lawyer but from looking at this a while ago and from what I read, IIRC it is up to you to prove it isn't fit for purpose. Generally this would mean getting an "expert" to state the item is unsafe. Plus you will have had to try and give the supplier (not the manufacturer by the way, as your contract is with the supplier) the option to redress the issue.

Secondly, does the particular part (the brake caliper and/or cables/levers) make the sum of the parts unsafe?

Have you tried to speak to the supplier about the issue yet?

I've looked into it and it seems that if the issue is noticed before 6 months is up then it's up to the supplier to deal with it. After 6 months and it's up to me to prove it.
I've contacted the supplier and the manufacturer about this in the past and they both fobbed me off.

 

[MacB]

I followed what you posted and some of the info you linked to when you where setting up yours. Unfortunately none of it is applicable to my case, i have tested the cable outers, I'm constantly adjusting the pads (that is main issue) and the rotor is in perfect shape.
I've used mechanical disc brakes before and hardly had to adjust them!

Hmm, well unless it's contamination or a faulty part then one can only assume that the Tektro Lyra aren't very good. When I was mooching and making my, ever so lengthy and agonising decisions, I came to the conclusion that it was BB7 or nothing. If you like the bike is it worth seeing if the shop will swap out the Lyra for BB7 for a very small consideration? You could ask them to fit a new set of Lyras but you may get more peace of mind with the brand swap. I had some serious reservations when I set mine up but it turned out to be the rotors needed truing. I then went through the bedding in process which didn't seem to take long and wasn't even remotely as scary as some claims I've read, it all seemed rather straight forward and mundane.

It would be a shame to ditch a bike that's you're otherwise happy with if a simple caliper swap would sort it.

 

[DrSquirrel]

I don't really know where to post this, but as a lot of people read here and it's related to commuting, at least for me.

Is it possible to claim that a bicycle is not fit for purpose under the sales of goods act?

My problem is the brakes, a pretty big problem, they need constant adjustment to function at a level which would be deemed safe, without adjustment then i would not be able to stop my bike in an emergency.
I've taken it to several chains of the shop i bought it form. Several changes have been made but only one improved on the issue but not enough to make me feel safe using it.

For those interested, this is about the Genesis day01, the brakes are tektro lyra but the rotors are shimano.

If its under 6 months, let the shop prove other wise.

If not its much harder, although if there are "reports" online about this being a common fault I would go for that (and look at an independant report from a bike mech).

 

[smiorgan]

Hi there. I tend to lurk so I haven't posted for years, but I had an idea...

Your bike presumably has Virsa levers to go with your Lyra brakes.

The CRC website says Lyra brakes are for linear pull levers

http://www.chainreac...9&ModelID=34651

But I saw an alfine-equipped bike online here with dual pivot calipers

http://bikehugger.co...e-road-bike-the

If you've been sold a bike with brakes fit for linear pull levers, but the levers are only standard pull, that could explain the bad performance instantly. It would also be easier to argue a fundamental technical fault - just point them to one of Sheldon Brown's pages on the dangers of mixing linear pull and standard pull levers and brakes.

Sorry if this has already been answered before - but thought I would speak up and just ask the dumb quesitions first. I'm paranoid about my brakes...

 

[BentMikey]

I don't think I would want to accept brakes that "worked" like that. I'd want them to fix it, upgrade the brakes, or replace the entire bike.

 

[sonic]

As someone who knows more than a little about these things (), I'd really like to know more about the problems you've been having. Could you explain exactly what your problem with the brakes has been, gaz? And Mr. smiorgan, I thought you might be interested to know that the lyra comes in two versions - a short pull and a long pull, depending on whether you want to run them with road or MTB levers. The assumption would be that the dayone is fitted with short pull calipers, though this can easily be checked by looking at the position the "arm" points at when at rest. I guess it's something gaz could check if he hasn't done already.

I have run lyras (indeed one of them with a shimano rotor) for a while now with no issues at all. not as nice as the BB7s i was running before, mind, but still perfectly fine. I could list a hundred things that might fix the problem, but i'd really like to hear what exactly the problem is.

Unfortunatly, i can't see you having much luck with the "fit for purpose" line - as long as they provide minimal braking power, they are fit for pupose - you'd be suprised at exactly how sh*t a brake can be and still be legal. And again, just cause something needs constant adjustment, doesn't really mean it isn't fit for purpose either.

 

[gaz]

Sonic, on your later points, i feel i could argue that brakes on a £1000 bike that need constant adjustment to provide me with me safe braking is not fit for purpose.

Anyway, i appreciate any help you can give me in resolving my issues.

My issue is with the rear brake. I set the pads up correctly and it works for a few times, but on occasions you pull the brake and you will feel the pads make contact with the rotor and I start to slow down. Then suddenly it goes past a point and it feels as if the pads just let go. As if the cable snapped but it hasn't. There is a loud clicking sound when this happens. It basically makes indicating right whilst slowing down or stopping impossible.
I felt this was originally resolved when spacers where added and the pads sat properly on the rotor.

My other issue is the constant (i'm talking 2+ times a week) need for adjustment of the pads for the brakes to operate at a satisfactory level (For me). I expect to be able to stop pretty quickly on these and i can do after i've tweaked them, it just doesn't last very long.

 

[teletext45]

i've used this act before, its the sales of good act 1974, ammended 1994 under secion C sale of good fit for purpose.

If it was me i would speak to citizen advise bureau. In my case i approached them with a strongly written letter and the folded at the kness and offered me a refund and voucers.

worth a go imho

andy