Flat faced dogs - is it right to ban them?

[Time Waster]

Interesting. Has anyone worked out how to reach all those owners who didn't get their dog or cat from a pedigree breeder but whose pet has amongst the other 57 varieties in their ancestry, these very characteristics, and is currently humping its way through through the local dog and cat population (respectively) in their area? The type of dog or cat owner who doesn't get their pet's nuts cracked and doesn't subscribe to pet insurance and those tediously expensive vaccinations etc? There are likely loads of those about, unless the dog owning population of the Netherlands is vastly more law abiding than ours.

Laws are no good without enforcement. Having the law in place is only a start. I doubt there's much enforcement without breeder licensing and enforcement of non licensed breeders. You'll never stop ppl breeding and passing on the odd dog. I think it's possible to make a difference to the main breeders and showdog breeders though. A start definitely, but only a start.

 

[Time Waster]

In full disclosure I have a border terrier. We only looked at breeds that were generally considered healthy. Then we went to a breeder with 100% genetically clear of the few conditions present in the breed. As in generations back genetically clear in both sire and dam. Fully health checked for many generations or conditions present in the breed as those tests became developed.

The other advantages of a BT is that it's a breed for a particular set of active jobs. Unhealthy issues would prevent them doing their job and would have been bred out. Also it's an old and established breed. There's a lot to be said for that too. Then there's the fact they're known as being terriers that are the most trainable or easily trained. Terriers always have the deaf ear thing but the BT this is less of an issue. 10 weeks old it walked to heel. It was just the dog's nature. Dog training classes it simply got everything. First class it had all the tricks down but labs, cocker spaniels and cockerpoos all couldn't do them despite months of classes. We got a goodun!

 

[DRM]

Not just flat nosed dogs, Alsatians are the same, been bred to have a sloped back end, when they were never like that originally, leading to problems with their rear legs and difficulty walking, leading to be put down, the kennel club should be banned imho, with their stupid idea of what certain breeds of dogs should look like

 

[Time Waster]

All breeds were created for a purpose, the questions is do you agree with the purpose? Companion animals were bred to be smaller for good reasons such as easier to keep, less exercise needed, better to keep in a more urban or suburban environment, etc. Even better temperament in some cases. If you're in need of that then there is value in it. I don't have a need for a badger hunter or a bull fighting dog or a ratter or gundog. Is that a reason not to breed them? Those bred in abilities were all choices made by people with a need for those abilities.

Even more recently Cockapoo crossbreed (new breed of the future?) Was bred as a guide dog for an extremely dog allergic boy in America. I don't need that but I don't need a fox hunting terrier like my BT neither. Should either of those breeds have never been bred or left to die out?

 

[CXRAndy]

Extremes of dog breeding should be banned, flat nose, too short and extended body ratio, aggressive, fur types or lack of

 

[BrumJim]

Extremes of dog breeding should be banned, flat nose, too short and extended body ratio, aggressive, fur types or lack of

In a way, I agree with you, but given the problems with the dangerous dog act, a piece of hurriedly implemented legislation that rapidly became toothless (ironically), I don't think legislation is the way to go. The Kennel Club really should take action, as it is there rules on aesthetics which is leading to these problems. Action has been taken in the past, but this is a big step for an organisation that has focused too much on the dog owner, and not enough on the dogs themselves.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

I dislike the whole concept of breeds.

I understand breeding dogs to do specific jobs, such as sheepdogs, dachshund, but am very uncomfortable with breeding to make a dog into a toy.

Although the currently fashionable XXXpoos/XXXdinky-dongles and the like are, by and large, healthier dogs because crossbreeds, of course.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

In a way, I agree with you, but given the problems with the dangerous dog act, a piece of hurriedly implemented legislation that rapidly became toothless (ironically), I don't think legislation is the way to go. The Kennel Club really should take action, as it is there rules on aesthetics which is leading to these problems. Action has been taken in the past, but this is a big step for an organisation that has focused too much on the dog owner, and not enough on the dogs themselves.

It is. They were behind the curve, and lost a good deal of credibility as a result, but are catching up. Thing is, much of what's at issue is now happening outside its aegis

 

[Fab Foodie]

Extremes of dog breeding should be banned, flat nose, too short and extended body ratio, aggressive, fur types or lack of

...same with humans....

 

[Time Waster]

Although the currently fashionable XXXpoos/XXXdinky-dongles and the like are, by and large, healthier dogs because crossbreeds, of course.

https://www.purina.co.uk/articles/d...dogs/health/symptoms/cockapoo-health-problems

Pretty much prone to the common health issues. Might be a cross breed but they're bred from individual breeds with issues that get passed on to the cross breed offspring.

The idea of cross breeds being healthy really only applies to complete mongrels that aren't a cross breed of X and Y. The wider mix in their genetic makeup is what likely gives them their better overall, average health.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

https://www.purina.co.uk/articles/d...dogs/health/symptoms/cockapoo-health-problems

Pretty much prone to the common health issues. Might be a cross breed but they're bred from individual breeds with issues that get passed on to the cross breed offspring.

The idea of cross breeds being healthy really only applies to complete mongrels that aren't a cross breed of X and Y. The wider mix in their genetic makeup is what likely gives them their better overall, average health.

Note I said 'By and large' healthier, not invariably, or 'healthy', so I think you may have misinterpreted what I wrote.

Dead link from the petfood company, by the way. Here's a more authoritative source:

https://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/health-of-purebred-vs-mixed-breed-dogs-the-data

Extract:

The study by Bellumori et al (2013) used medical records from the veterinary clinic at UC Davis for more than 27,000 dogs and compared the incidence of 24 genetic disorders in mixed versus purebred dogs. The abstract of the paper is included at the bottom of this page.

Here is what they found:

1) The incidence of 10 genetic disorders (42%) was significantly greater in purebred dogs.

2) The incidence of 1 disorder (ruptured cranial cruciate ligament; 4%) was greater in mixed breed dogs.

3) For the rest of the disorders examined, they found no difference in incidence between mixed and purebred dogs.

 

[Time Waster]

As I said they are prone to similar health complaints as pure bred dogs. Same mix of issues as the pure breeds they came from.

Dismissive of food brands that have health information on dogs? I understand why but Purina generally summarises what you'll find from more academic or independent sources in a more accessible way. Not a bad resource for dog owners to use until they feel the need for going back to the research behind it.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

As I said they are prone to similar health complaints as pure bred dogs. Same mix of issues as the pure breeds they came from.

Dismissive of food brands that have health information on dogs? I understand why but Purina generally summarises what you'll find from more academic or independent sources in a more accessible way. Not a bad resource for dog owners to use until they feel the need for going back to the research behind it.

No, just sensitive to somebody misunderstanding what I said - which is correct as I presented it

 

[MrGrumpy]

Not a fan of some of the different breeds. Pugs and similar breeds with the snorting don’t seem right to me . Cockpoos are popular round here , bought because they don’t shed etc .

 

[Time Waster]

Pugs are actually quite good dogs apart from the excessive deformity of the nose, difficulty breathing, tendency towards overweight, skin infections in the folds of skin on face and body, etc. Character and behaviour is pretty good. Very good natured dogs.

If you get one without the excessive, breed standard deformities you can actually get a pretty good little dog. My gran had two good pedigree ones that were embarrassingly not flat nosed enough for breeding from or showing. The top breeder called them rejects and gave them away to my gran who lived far enough away that nobody would link them back to the breeder. Lovely rejects that I simply don't remember them having any breathing issues or snorting like a pig. They were possibly closer to the breed as shown maybe 100 years ago.

BTW the classic English bulldog is another such deformed breed standard. How the hell can the kennel club take a tall, athletic, strong and determined bull baiting/ fighting dog and turn it into a fat, stumpy, partially suffocating, unauthenticated dog like the ones winning breed at crafts and other KC shows? That's the worse than pugs because they were tall and athletic with a much longer muzzle. Pugs were always short, fat and short muzzled. For what they've done to that one British breed alone they should be sanctioned, let alone what they've caused to have happened to all the other breeds with issues due to breed standard breeding.