Flat faced dogs - is it right to ban them?

[Mo1959]

I meet a lady in the park with a French Bulldog and the poor thing snorts rather than breathes. I would be embarrassed if I owned it.

 

[welsh dragon]

Dogs have been bred to be fashion statements. Totally agree with the Dutch, those breeds of dog with hardly and faces or legs that are so short they can hardly walk, or have so much skin that they cant even see properly should be banned.

 

[Saluki]

I meet a lady in the park with a French Bulldog and the poor thing snorts rather than breathes. I would be embarrassed if I owned it.

We saw one, last night, with the tail docked so short that it just wasn’t there. Poor thing was struggling in the warmth of the evening, walking up the ramp from the beach to the promenade. Heaven knows how it coped on the steeper ramp up to street level. I really felt angry about breeding practices.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Nothing wrong with selective breeding when its is done with thought and consideration to genuinely improve the health or utility of the breed. I'm a fan of field labradors, selective breeding done cleverly and well.

Its when it is done for the sake of appearance, most particularly to meet current breed fashions at dog shows, is where it tends to go a bit wrong.

German Shepherds with horribly rearward-splayed back legs is my pet hate, but shepherd's from conventional breed working stock are magnificent animals. Selective breeding gave us both as it is a force for good or evil.

Agreed - used to know a bloke who bred and trained labs as hunting dogs

his dogs were brilliant and never had the general health problems because he knew all the blood lines that were from proper gun dogs

you did have to be careful around them though - he did like to hug the dogs and invited to them to jump up to him - jump directly up with paws on his shoulders - by holding his arms wide apart
so if you did that near the dogs them you could end up with a full grown, very fit and powerful Lab arriving at speed on your chest

all visitors and purchasers were warned!!!

 

[Time Waster]

I’ve owned a number of Pugs and currently have two. This entire subject of unhealthy life is being thrown around with a VERY broad brush. Should you take no concern with how you feed and exercise your Pug (or any other animal or human?) of course you wind up with an absolutely compromised creature.
It truly is a sign of how much time we have on our hands that THIS is the focus of attention. Start a list of every canine that is susceptible to some form of malady and let’s see what’s left ? Caring for a Pug is quite easy if you simply pay attention to their needs and don’t expect them to be something they are not.

Absurd…….

My gran had 4 over the years. The last two were given to her by someone who was at the time a top pug breeder from another part of the UK. She got those dogs so long as she didn't let on where they came from or move near to her. Reason? They had too long a muzzle. A throwback that she was too embarrassed to have linked to her. They were clearly pugs but had a bit of a nose sticking out. As a result they didn't snort or struggle to breathe. They were fairly healthy, except for issues with too short legs, tendency to be overweight, unable to walk far (a positive for my grandparents).

Owning and loving the little characters simply doesn't preclude the fact they've undergone selective breeding to achieve a made up breed standard that has driven a skull deformation that is tantamount to cruel. Bear in mind they'll still be characters without the bent in skull of they bred that out of them. If we went back to the breed standard of Hogarth's time we'll still have the Pug character but within a healthy dog.

If you want to see the issue Google Pug skulls now and then or something similar. I saw the change over little more than a hundred years.

PS the Pug breed is an old breed from China. It's really only in It's more recent history that the skull issue has happened. What's wrong with going back to the original breed standard that was actually healthy. It's more absurd to want to stick with the unhealthy breed standard.

 

[Time Waster]

BTW there's other issues too. The old English bull terrier with the long snout that kind of points down. They've bred out the step at the eyes and in the process created issues. They kind of go into a trance when they brush the top of the head say on curtains or bushes. A form of brain damage caused by the excessive changes in the skull morphology I believe.

You can go on.

It's why I bought a border terrier from a breeder with both parents genetic checked and rated for various physical issues. Both were clear on all counts and highly rated. Which means that mine will be clear too.

 

[T4tomo]

Nothing wrong with selective breeding when its is done with thought and consideration to genuinely improve the health or utility of the breed. I'm a fan of field labradors, selective breeding done cleverly and well.

Indeed, massive generalisation alert, but gun dogs are bred for skills, not looks and generally have pretty good temperaments (particularly labs and retrievers, (although one I used to take grouse beating with me in my teenage years to exercise it for his owner (who just did picking up) was aggressive when on home territory, but OK on the moors).

Macho dogs of the bulldoggish variety and various toy breeds are breed for looks / extreme characteristics which is where problems occur. In the case of macho dogs, stupid owners then train them to be more aggressive which is more of a problem

 

[Bonefish Blues]

It's why I bought a border terrier from a breeder with both parents genetic checked and rated for various physical issues. Both were clear on all counts and highly rated. Which means that mine will be clear too.

A look back at the original Border Terrier shows they are also following fashion for shortened snouts.

https://www.theborderterrierclub.co.uk/origins.html

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

When I was a kid my parents used to warn me about Black Labs
They believed that labs had been bred by SOME breeders so that the black ones were more common than normal - but that a side effect of this was that the black ones were soemtime aggressive
but not the golden ones for $reasons

anyway - does not seem to be true anymore

Bloke I used to know that trained labs as gun dogs always preferred black ones - and they were never aggressive - but to be fair they were VERY well trained!

 

[T4tomo]

My uncle was a gamekeeper and he and most others favour black labs for working (he also had spaniels) with anyone sporting a golden one being seen as a bit of a mistake or a sop to their Mrs who'd persuaded them to get it because it looked cuter.

Nobody was daft enough to turn up with a chocolate lab and expect it to work as a gun dog, as they were universally stupid (but cute). the only choco labs you saw on the grouse moor were those belonging to one of the "guns" trophy wives...

 

[vickster]

My uncle was a gamekeeper and he and most others favour black labs for working (he also had spaniels) with anyone sporting a golden one being seen as a bit of a mistake or a sop to their Mrs who'd persuaded them to get it because it looked cuter.

Nobody was daft enough to turn up with a chocolate lab and expect it to work as a gun dog, as they were universally stupid (but cute). the only choco labs you saw on the grouse moor were those belonging to one of the "guns" trophy wives...

My parents had friends up in Northumberland, one of their gun dogs was a choc lab, she was excellent at her job

 

[T4tomo]

My parents had friends up in Northumberland, one of their gun dogs was a choc lab, they thought she was excellent at her job, but in truth she was rubbish and they just ignored her faults

Never doubt the wisdom of Yorkshire gamekeepers...

 

[MrGrumpy]

Never doubt the wisdom of Yorkshire gamekeepers...

I was aware that choc labs were never the best for that sort of work ! Our retriever is off working stock but superb at retrieving……… socks pants and sniffing out dead stuff to roll on :-D !

 

[Drago]

There's a load of talk among tweed wearing types when I go shooting that certain coloured labs have different temperaments, make better gundogs, yadda yadda, but breeders, vets and geneticists tend to say this is nonsense - the abberant gene that dictates colour has no bearing on personality or intelligence any more than it does with humans.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

There's a load of talk among tweed wearing types when I go shooting that certain coloured labs have different temperaments, make better gundogs, yadda yadda, but breeders, vets and geneticists tend to say this is nonsense - the abberant gene that dictates colour has no bearing on personality or intelligence any more than it does with humans.

The guy I knew that bred gundogs and trained them - agreed with that

but always wanted black ones because he could get a better price for a trained Black Lab than for an other colour - and given the investment in time that was an important point

Of course - if good trainers always go for Black ones then they re-enforce the myth even if they know it is not true!