Formula 1

[Illaveago]

He passed whilst off the track, which isn't something that should be done, rejoining with a visible advantage that wasn't there beforehand due to missing a turn. An advantage that wasn't given back.

He had no option to go off the track otherwise there would have been a collision. Max's way of driving is to go for any gap whether he remains within the track limits or not . He also had the benefit of if he took Lewis out he would win the championship .

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Now more conversations publicised between Masi and Redbull.

Basically, Redbull suggested, let only those cars in-between Hamilton and Verstappen through, block the rest- Masi agreeing, saying understood

Completely contrary to the rules in that situation

That's been openly available since the race. Not sure why all of a sudden it's become a smoking gun.

 

[Grant Fondo]

If you had to go out for a pint with:
a) Toto Wolff
b) Christian Horner
Who would it be?
(I would much rather listen to the drivers than the corporate arse-speak from those two)

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Mrs Wolff

 

[icowden]

He passed whilst off the track, which isn't something that should be done, rejoining with a visible advantage that wasn't there beforehand due to missing a turn. An advantage that wasn't given back.

You make it sound much more cut and dried than it was.

Max darted down the inside to get the "overtake" but in a way which only had two outcomes - deliberately forcing Hamilton off track, or crashing. The Race director and stewards could have decided it was a dangerous overtake and given Hamilton the place back. Instead - Hamilton retained the place due to being forced off track and into a shortcut. Mercedes and Hamilton asked whether the place needed to be given back, Hamilton took the precaution of slowing to ensure that he had no lasting time advantage from the shortcut and the ultimate decision, rightly or wrongly was to let Hamilton keep the place - which he wouldn't have lost had Max been overtaking safely and correctly.

Had Masi been consistent with the rules about forcing drivers off-track then Max would have had a penalty.
Had Masi ordered Mercedes to give the place back then he would have had complaints about sanctioning Max's driving which was in breech of the rules about forcing other drivers off track.

Perhaps it would have been better for Hamilton if he had given the place back. We will never know. What is certain is that Masi engineered the result so that Max won. There can be no other conclusion from his actions. He gave the victory to Red Bull in the most unsporting manner possible whilst pretending he was doing it in the name of "sport".

Mercedes have accepted that the result will stand, but Masi has to go and the rules have to be enforced evenly and correctly so that this can never happen again.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

You make it sound much more cut and dried than it was.

Max darted down the inside to get the "overtake" but in a way which only had two outcomes - deliberately forcing Hamilton off track, or crashing. The Race director and stewards could have decided it was a dangerous overtake and given Hamilton the place back. Instead - Hamilton retained the place due to being forced off track and into a shortcut. Mercedes and Hamilton asked whether the place needed to be given back, Hamilton took the precaution of slowing to ensure that he had no lasting time advantage from the shortcut and the ultimate decision, rightly or wrongly was to let Hamilton keep the place - which he wouldn't have lost had Max been overtaking safely and correctly.

Had Masi been consistent with the rules about forcing drivers off-track then Max would have had a penalty.
Had Masi ordered Mercedes to give the place back then he would have had complaints about sanctioning Max's driving which was in breech of the rules about forcing other drivers off track.

Perhaps it would have been better for Hamilton if he had given the place back. We will never know. What is certain is that Masi engineered the result so that Max won. There can be no other conclusion from his actions. He gave the victory to Red Bull in the most unsporting manner possible whilst pretending he was doing it in the name of "sport".

Mercedes have accepted that the result will stand, but Masi has to go and the rules have to be enforced evenly and correctly so that this can never happen again.

It's a thoughtful post, much of which I agree with, but where we differ is I think the result came from panic, not 'engineering', iyswim. The voices in his ear likely had an influence, and he just didn't think of the consequences...

 

[icowden]

It's a thoughtful post, much of which I agree with, but where we differ is I think the result came from panic, not 'engineering', iyswim. The voices in his ear likely had an influence, and he just didn't think of the consequences...

True - I'm happy also to accept that he panicked due to the relentless onslaught from Horner throughout the race.

 

[Kempstonian]

Hamilton has forced drivers off the track many times, including his own team mate Rosberg. He can't have any complaint when somebody does it to him. He just doesn't like it because Verstappen has the same attitude as him. These incidents will happen again because neither driver will back down.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Hamilton has forced drivers off the track many times, including his own team mate Rosberg. He can't have any complaint when somebody does it to him. He just doesn't like it because Verstappen has the same attitude as him. These incidents will happen again because neither driver will back down.

It's a very fine line isn't it. Max is the master of 'sending it', as the currently fashionable phrase has it. Lewis is more subtle, for sure.

The drivers need clarity and consistency, that's all - they will race to the edge of what's possible.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

In my - rather biased - opinion Max's overtaking is more aggressive to the point where it is frequently dangerous. Under pressure he will force a situation where the other driver has to let him past or crash.
As I say - I am biased.
They have to stop the teams being able to shout at the race officials when they are trying to make quick decisions based on a rule book that is massive.
In 'that race' there was, again IMO, bias at the end - but he was trying to balance loads of different things very quickly.

It will be interesting to see how things are changed/clarified next season

not long to wait now!!

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Teams won't be able to speak direct to the Race Director, that's already been confirmed.

 

[classic33]

True - I'm happy also to accept that he panicked due to the relentless onslaught from Horner throughout the race.

Wolff wasn't a saint on the day either. Throughout the weekend. Allowing the number 25* to appear on the steering wheel of Hamiltons car, knowing full well there'd be a camera on it. In breach of regulations.

*References the 25 place "grid penalty" given to Hamilton.

 

[icowden]

Wolff wasn't a saint on the day either. Throughout the weekend. Allowing the number 25* to appear on the steering wheel of Hamiltons car, knowing full well there'd be a camera on it. In breach of regulations.

*References the 25 place "grid penalty" given to Hamilton.

Struggling to find anything about this on the internet at all. I'd have thought that it was more likely to be referencing Hamilton's Accelerate 25 diversity and inclusion programme though.

 

[Beebo]

With Masi using the same language to justify his call that RB had used to promote their case. In paraphrase it was something like:

RB: "Hey, just let those few cars through and don't bother waiting before restarting - then we have a motor race"
MM: "OK"
[Situation unfolds as outlined by RB]
Toto: "I say chap, that's not on"
MM: "It's called a motor race Toto".

I'm still angry about it.

The fact that he uses the term “motor-race” straight after is a bit of a smoking gun for me.
He was only interested in getting a race underway, and there was only one possible outcome from that situation.

 

[figbat]

Struggling to find anything about this on the internet at all. I'd have thought that it was more likely to be referencing Hamilton's Accelerate 25 diversity and inclusion programme though.

Yep, mentioned here.